Reverb & delay - Helix vs Fractal

[Mikael Dez]

Cliff alluded to this being in the cards for the VP4 "soon"

VP4 Firmware V2.02 Release

Wish! Please make E-H deep freeze ability for vp4. Yall would have the best version hands down.

forum.fractalaudio.com

I would 100% get one at that point. I’d really just need a noise gate solution (Zuul or a Boss something or other) so that I could run that with my SD-1 before my amp, then the line out from my Suhr into the VP4 for IR, chorus, delay, reverb. Done, son!

 

[GTR37]

These are all abstract descriptors, so I'll say that leaving it at 10Khz or above can sometimes sound metallic, or I can hear what I perceive as metallic on both the louder-picked notes and the trails/decay. Keeping it at 9Khz or just below makes the reverb sound warm, and - on more ambient decay/mix settings - cloudlike.

And to be clear, "warm" != dark or blurry or smudged.

That's what I wanted from the Helix dynamic reverbs, and that's what I got.

Fractal reverbs are fantastic, and often don't require any tweaking, but then again...there are a kabillion different algorithms. I love that! I just don't feel disadvantaged when using Helix reverbs, is all.

I think there also is specific use cases to
I personally do not want to run reverb ( unless it’s a spring ) or delay in front of the amp as I feel it gives a lower fi more artifact prone response but people have done it forever and dig it

Edit I am surprised about the new dynamic verbs because I thought they were done by some of the lexicon team Line6 acquired
And lexicon hall / plate are great algos

 

[deathbyguitar]

I would 100% get one at that point. I’d really just need a noise gate solution (Zuul or a Boss something or other) so that I could run that with my SD-1 before my amp, then the line out from my Suhr into the VP4 for IR, chorus, delay, reverb. Done, son!

Well it's gonna happen. I can tell you that the effects are incredible and the interface is a breeze to use.

 

[Mikael Dez]

Well it's gonna happen. I can tell you that the effects are incredible and the interface is a breeze to use.

Do you use it as an audio interface?

 

[sashimi]

I think there also is specific use cases to
I personally do not want to run reverb ( unless it’s a spring ) or delay in front of the amp as I feel it gives a lower fi more artifact prone response but people have done it forever and dig it

Edit I am surprised about the new dynamic verbs because I thought they were done by some of the lexicon team Line6 acquired
And lexicon hall / plate are great algos

To me dynamic plate sounds very smooth and not metallic, at least not any more than a metal plate should sound. I don’t really use hall reverb so I can’t speak for dynamic hall. I’ll try it today. But dynamic room is excellent IMO, sounds very natural to me. And dynamic ambience is very good too for an even shorter room sound. And hot springs I guess sounds metallic, like a metal spring should. I do often turn the high cut down to around 5k on that one. It’s not the greatest spring sound I’ve ever heard but it’s definitely useable and tweakable enough to get what I want out of it.

I haven’t directly compared UAD pure plate to dynamic plate, but I think I will try that and see. I thought they sound comparable. I guess maybe I don’t have an ear for the subtleties of reverb either because I am not that picky about them, at least not the newer options in helix. They work well for me.

When you guys say metallic, I think of the boss rv-6. Now that is a metallic sounding plate and spring, I found them unusable, no way to dial out that metallic ringing.

 

[dk_ace]

To me dynamic plate sounds very smooth and not metallic, at least not any more than a metal plate should sound. I don’t really use hall reverb so I can’t speak for dynamic hall. I’ll try it today. But dynamic room is excellent IMO, sounds very natural to me. And dynamic ambience is very good too for an even shorter room sound. And hot springs I guess sounds metallic, like a metal spring should. I do often turn the high cut down to around 5k on that one. It’s not the greatest spring sound I’ve ever heard but it’s definitely useable and tweakable enough to get what I want out of it.

I haven’t directly compared UAD pure plate to dynamic plate, but I think I will try that and see. I thought they sound comparable. I guess maybe I don’t have an ear for the subtleties of reverb either because I am not that picky about them, at least not the newer options in helix. They work well for me.

When you guys say metallic, I think of the boss rv-6. Now that is a metallic sounding plate and spring, I found them unusable, no way to dial out that metallic ringing.

I’m starting to note a trend here where the people that are happy with the dynamic verbs tend to use the dynamic plate.

I’m mostly complaining about dynamic hall. I never used plate much except for subtle stuff.

I complain about hot springs too. Not becuase it sounds metallic but because it does not do its job of sounding like an outboard spring tank. It sounds like an audio caricature of an outboard spring tank. Yuck. ‘63 spring is more usable despite its flaws, and if you run it parallel with some compression, eq, and delay you can get a really good tank sound with it. That’s a lot of dsp and eats up a whole path in helix though. Stadium will ease some of that pain.

D

 

[deathbyguitar]

Do you use it as an audio interface?

No but I probably could, come to think of it. The whole thing is basically an FX only AxeFx III. If there's anything in particular you'd wanna test with it, I'm sure I could whip up a video or something

 

[Mikael Dez]

No but I probably could, come to think of it. The whole thing is basically an FX only AxeFx III. If there's anything in particular you'd wanna test with it, I'm sure I could whip up a video or something

Nah that’s ok, my needs are real simple - right now I have my Helix rack in 4CM with my amp going into my Suhr RL, using an IR with the Helix. I stayed away from the FM3 because of reports of it not being a great audio interface. I would want pedals > amp > VP4 > my MacBook.

 

[banned]

I’m starting to note a trend here where the people that are happy with the dynamic verbs tend to use the dynamic plate.

I’m mostly complaining about dynamic hall. I never used plate much except for subtle stuff.

I complain about hot springs too. Not becuase it sounds metallic but because it does not do its job of sounding like an outboard spring tank. It sounds like an audio caricature of an outboard spring tank. Yuck. ‘63 spring is more usable despite its flaws, and if you run it parallel with some compression, eq, and delay you can get a really good tank sound with it. That’s a lot of dsp and eats up a whole path in helix though. Stadium will ease some of that pain.

D

I find 63 spring works really well before or after the amp as a natural sounding spring reverb. The only thing it doesn't do is the ploink, ploink sounds that the the Hot Springs does. Almost seems like you'd want a combination of the two.

 

[dk_ace]

I find 63 spring works really well before or after the amp as a natural sounding spring reverb. The only thing it doesn't do is the ploink, ploink sounds that the the Hot Springs does. Almost seems like you'd want a combination of the two.

When I mention putting it in parallel and adding a delay, the delay in front of it is used to approximate the “drip” sound that you’re referring to. It’s not exactly the same thing, but it would fool most people.

D

 

[Karl Houseknecht]

I am surprised about the new dynamic verbs because I thought they were done by some of the lexicon team Line6 acquired
And lexicon hall / plate are great algos

Yes, but that doesn't mean they replicated the lexicon algorithms. If they did, I doubt we'd be complaining.

 

[dk_ace]

I think there also is specific use cases to
I personally do not want to run reverb ( unless it’s a spring ) or delay in front of the amp as I feel it gives a lower fi more artifact prone response but people have done it forever and dig it

Edit I am surprised about the new dynamic verbs because I thought they were done by some of the lexicon team Line6 acquired
And lexicon hall / plate are great algos

I had high hopes. They do not sound like other devices that are copping lexicon reverbs (meris for example). I have not owned one of the classic lexicon rack units, so I can’t say how they compare to that. They don’t compare well to the best modern pedal or rack gear though.

D

 

[OneEng]

I complain about hot springs too. Not becuase it sounds metallic but because it does not do its job of sounding like an outboard spring tank. It sounds like an audio caricature of an outboard spring tank. Yuck. ‘63 spring is more usable despite its flaws, and if you run it parallel with some compression, eq, and delay you can get a really good tank sound with it. That’s a lot of dsp and eats up a whole path in helix though. Stadium will ease some of that pain.

Good reverb is generally very processor intensive. In modern digital mixers, the verb engine is usually considered a "premium" plug-in and sometimes even limited to certain fx channels that have specifically been beefed up to handle the load. The old TC Electronics M3000-M6000 verb units still run >$2K used. The VSS3 versions of these are really nice, but also not cheap. The Behringer Wing has the M3000 VSS3 built in (which I love).

It isn't surprising that Verbs are hard for guitar processors to do well.

Yes, but that doesn't mean they replicated the lexicon algorithms. If they did, I doubt we'd be complaining.

Agree. Lexicon has some great sounding verbs. "Airy" is the word that comes to mind .... or "Transparent".

 

[GTR37]

I had high hopes. They do not sound like other devices that are copping lexicon reverbs (meris for example). I have not owned one of the classic lexicon rack units, so I can’t say how they compare to that. They don’t compare well to the best modern pedal or rack gear though.

D

perhaps the new Helix Stadium will also have convolution verbs and also Proxy may be able to capture some of the best ones like the Lexicon if you wanted too at some point

 

[dk_ace]

Good reverb is generally very processor intensive. In modern digital mixers, the verb engine is usually considered a "premium" plug-in and sometimes even limited to certain fx channels that have specifically been beefed up to handle the load. The old TC Electronics M3000-M6000 verb units still run >$2K used. The VSS3 versions of these are really nice, but also not cheap. The Behringer Wing has the M3000 VSS3 built in (which I love).

It isn't surprising that Verbs are hard for guitar processors to do well.

Agree. Lexicon has some great sounding verbs. "Airy" is the word that comes to mind .... or "Transparent".

There are plenty of guitar reverb pedals and rack units that sound stellar. I have several of them. Helix isn’t lacking the horsepower for great reverb. It can do amazingly good amp modeling and poly pitch stuff, it’s got the juice for good reverb.

D

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

Kind of the opposite actually. The last firmware designed for the Axe-FXIi was Quantum 9.x.

The first firmware for the Axe-FXIII was Ares 1.03. Cliff said he ported as much of Ares as he could to the last Axe-FXII firmware. Just like he did for the Ultra/Std. FW 11 when the II came out.

And when I say that I chose Fractal because of the constant grind to improve all blocks on the unit, I'm talking about this:

Amp modeling - Fractal Audio Wiki

wiki.fractalaudio.com

This is just the list of amp modelling engine updates. There has been constant evolution of drives, compressors, reverbs, delays and all the other blocks. That's just my personal preference for what I use.

But one time at band camp, a guy from L6 said they do a lot of amp modeling updates all the time but never tell anybody about them because...

....uh....

...they don't like money?

 

[JiveTurkey]

But one time at band camp, a guy from L6 said they do a lot of amp modeling updates all the time but never tell anybody about them because...

....uh....

...they don't like money?

You forgot the !

 

[Orvillain]

DSP designers have to work within the limitations set by the product team and the hardware.

It isn't necesarily that good reverb algorithms are expensive or processor intensive. You can get good algorithms on pretty modest devices. But there is both a science and an art to it, and simply put... not everyone is capable of it.

 

[Frodebro]

DSP designers have to work within the limitations set by the product team and the hardware.

It isn't necesarily that good reverb algorithms are expensive or processor intensive. You can get good algorithms on pretty modest devices. But there is both a science and an art to it, and simply put... not everyone is capable of it.

Kemper seem to be extremely good with efficient coding, they've crammed an awful lot of new stuff into that original hardware. When the updated delays and reverbs dropped, it was a night and day difference.

 

[EOengineer]

The thing about the Stadium that to me will probably be the most cool (beyond "oooooh touchscreen!") is how it will integrate with amps and aid in switching said amps.

Helix can already switch up to (I think?) 4 devices with the switching outs. Were you thinking more with tying that into the automation stuff?

TBH the switching is one of the few threads keeping the current device here.

@Digital Igloo If you're looking for reference pedals - my 2 pennies...

- Strymon Blue Sky
- UA Golden
- Boss RV-5
- MXR Reverb
- Source Audio Ventris

Those are my favourites anyway.

I’d put the Meris Mercury in here as well for great sounding weird stuff and large spaces with interesting character.

Obviously YMMV.