Realistic reverb is crap

[Orvillain]

It is slowly dawning on me, and maybe I'm alone here, but I don't like realistic reverb. Particularly on guitar, but in general.

realistic reverb tries to put your guitar somewhere, but artsy cinematic atmospheric reverb turns your guitar into something.

Sonically, I'm not very interested in answering the question "where is the sound happening?" I'm more interested in answering the question "what if?"

I'm trying to shape tone, emotion, and movement. I'm not trying to pretend I'm in some Philharmonic setting, or that my recording was exactly and precisely 6metres from the rear wall of Cuck Studios, Florida.

Guitar is already an abstraction. It is already fake. Adding realistic space to that just feels conceptually wrong to me. I don't want realism. I want impact.

Led Zep found a stairwell they could record drums in, then they crushed the living shit out of the recordings with a compressor. It is the abstraction and the combination of processing that makes that sound literally a world class, genre defining, music defining recording:



That isn't real. At all. But it is fucking amazing.

 

[newholland]

in a lot of ways, i absolutely agree. i HATE hearing audio people talk about 'hearing the music as the artist intended'...because recording, you realize that is basically impossible. theres no such thing as unmediated music- and in a lotts ways, its ALL fake. as a recording person, i try to create exactly that- the impact of music live in a space- but realize thats.largely impossible, so you have to manipulate the sounds you have to emulate that because the lightning in a bottle of a real thing happening.... is super elusive. so you have to, in semiotics terms, create the superreal- i.e. something manipulated to seem real. lots of smoke and mirrors.

i stopped apologizing when folks go.. whoa.. hey that sounds like it does live. truthfully... it doesnt... but thanks for saying my vision of emulating that does!

if it sounds good, it is good.

(basically- even though i disagree about realistic verbs being crap- we do agree that you have no option but to manipulate music- so do so to your taste, regardless of what it is: its basically the law of production!)

 

[sleewell]

As long as it's not shimmer lol I'm usually into big huge crazy types of reverbs like the afterneath that you can just get lost in but wouldn't be like your main tone always on

 

[newholland]

ah- case in point. i recorded an old time string band a coupla years back.. on site IN A GOAT BARN. not kidding!

the premise was- oh itll sound real.. well.. genuine.old timey. haha.. it sounded dry as a bone. i added convolution verb seated really low to EVERYONE. it sounded completely natural after whereas before it sounded like it was recorded in a carpeted van

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

Totally disagree. Most important reverb for me is an absolutely accurate sound of spring reverb in front of an amp. For realism.

Sarcasm.

In terms of spaces, I think there was a period where "inaccurate" space reverbs revealed themselves in ways that were just generally gross for most purposes -- metallic ringing that requires too much low pass filtering to get rid of, etc. So for a period, I think the push for "more realistic space reverbs" was more about "stop making these things sound like shit" more so than "may these sound more like the real spaces". But yeah, I'd say a whole lot of that kinda crap is gone at this point and the goal is just getting a desirable useful tone more so than realism.

The most desirable useful tone (at the moment) happening to be the most authentic copy of the most inauthentic space reverb ever created (spring) compressed and clipped to hell by a crunchy amp...

 

[HotRats]

I 100% agree if we talk about popular music (with or without electric guitar), that making records is not about realism, it's quite the opposite.

In that scenario reverbs (and all sorts of effects) play big role in adding some magic to the recipe.

Any reverb type has it's place though.
A nice realistic room might be essential for a drums sound and even a guitar part.

I won't limit my self because sometimes non obvious choices lead to beautiful results.

There are convolutions of wired spaces, like the inside of an helmet or a vaccum cleaner, that place you there but it's so unusual or unexpected that makes the sound interesting and new.

 

[laxu]

I agree. When I'm playing in a real space with a real amp...I don't want a room reverb. I want something more effected. Plate and hall are my go-tos. I used to have a Strymon Nightsky, but I felt it was a bit too much ambient for me.

I think room reverbs have their place in things like adding space to close miced guitar, or making an album sound more like a "live" or "demo" album by drenching it in room reverb.

When playing through headphones I want those realistic reverbs, because I want to be put into a space.

I even use a plugin for general audio for this through SoundSource on Mac to get a more room-like sound when listening to anything through headphones. It makes things more pleasant and I can always just turn it off if analytic listening matters.

But you know what is actually crap? Spring reverbs on amps. Why the hell does no amp manufacturer think people would like to have decay and tone controls on the spring reverbs? Why is it always the same damn one knob spring? I don't even use the spring reverb on my Mark V because I get better results from my Strymon Flint V2.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

it is, but it’s also contextual. Time and place for all approaches. Long modulated halls are dreadful on acoustic guitar, drums and pianos. Sometimes on guitar you want some space and depth on a sound without having an obvious reverb. It’s a very different thing to hang a long hall/plate/spring, where it almost doesn’t make sense to compare them.

On the whole, I agree though - I like big characterful reverbs on guitar. It’s part of the sound design and electric guitar lends itself to OTT reverbs

 

[Orvillain]

But you know what is actually crap? Spring reverbs on amps. Why the hell does no amp manufacturer think people would like to have decay and tone controls on the spring reverbs? Why is it always the same damn one knob spring? I don't even use the spring reverb on my Mark V because I get better results from my Strymon Flint V2.

This. 100% this. They're always so uninspiring, and the more modern they are the more mellow and just a bit of a bolt-on feature they seem to be. The old skool surf guitar thing... again, a "fake" sound that defined an entire genre.

I really liked the one on the original Orange Rockerverb. It was so gloomy and over the top sounding. They've neutered it in the MKIII series somehow.

 

[laxu]

This. 100% this. They're always so uninspiring, and the more modern they are the more mellow and just a bit of a bolt-on feature they seem to be. The old skool surf guitar thing... again, a "fake" sound that defined an entire genre.

I really liked the one on the original Orange Rockerverb. It was so gloomy and over the top sounding. They've neutered it in the MKIII series somehow.

My all-time favorite amp spring reverb is the plate-meets-hall digital reverb on the Victory VC35. Just because it's not a freakin' Accutronics tank.

Really should not have sold that amp...it was the perfect Vox style thing when paired with an Alnico Gold.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

But you know what is actually crap? Spring reverbs on amps. Why the hell does no amp manufacturer think people would like to have decay and tone controls on the spring reverbs?

There's no way to have a decay knob on a spring reverb I don't think? Dwell impacts this to a degree, but the tank is the bigger determinant. Tone control is useful, dwell moderately so. But adding those in is going to add meaningful amount to the cost of production for a feature that veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeerry few people are gonna be willing to pay more for.

 

[Orvillain]

There's no way to have a decay knob on a spring reverb I don't think? Dwell impacts this to a degree, but the tank is the bigger determinant. Tone control is useful, dwell moderately so. But adding those in is going to add meaningful amount to the cost of production for a feature that veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeerry few people are gonna be willing to pay more for.

Big booty springs for the longest decay, and then a way to attenuate the signal to control it? I don't know. Don't really know how springs work tbh!!

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

Big booty springs for the longest decay, and then a way to attenuate the signal to control it? I don't know. Don't really know how springs work tbh!!

a "dwell" knob controls the level of signal sent to the spring tank -- I think it kind has to be a "more" rather than an "attenuation" because you've gotta have a minimum level of signal sent to the tank to not wind up with crazy noise, etc. Going low mix with a long tank sounds weeeeeeeeeird to me.

I think the challenge in general with amp reverb is that spring reverb is, by its nature, not a very subtle reverb, but a lot of folks are just looking for a subtle reverb for their amp reverb.

 

[KHAAAAAAANNNNNNN!!!!!!!!]

I don't know. Don't really know how springs work tbh!!

 

[2112]

Electric guitar is all about character after all, right? The PCM70 Rich Plate preset is magic on guitar but it doesn't sound like a real space (or plate) at all.

A good example of "realistic" reverb use here.

 

[RGB]

I kinda feel like the huge ambient verbs just get lost in the live rock mix anyway...just a lot of mush in most cases.

As for spring reverb, I always hated it until I bought a Peavey Valverb back in the '90s. That was one spring unit that I loved...why did I ever sell that thing? The preamp in it was worth the price alone.

Now I'm using an EPSi for convolution verbs, but I use it more as a thickener than an ambient effect...and I don't use it on guitar as much as vocals. Long decays just don't work in a live setting for rock music...in my opinion anyway.

 

[DrewJD82]

in a lot of ways, i absolutely agree. i HATE hearing audio people talk about 'hearing the music as the artist intended'...because recording, you realize that is basically impossible. theres no such thing as unmediated music- and in a lotts ways, its ALL fake. as a recording person, i try to create exactly that- the impact of music live in a space- but realize thats.largely impossible, so you have to manipulate the sounds you have to emulate that because the lightning in a bottle of a real thing happening.... is super elusive. so you have to, in semiotics terms, create the superreal- i.e. something manipulated to seem real. lots of smoke and mirrors.

i stopped apologizing when folks go.. whoa.. hey that sounds like it does live. truthfully... it doesnt... but thanks for saying my vision of emulating that does!

if it sounds good, it is good.

(basically- even though i disagree about realistic verbs being crap- we do agree that you have no option but to manipulate music- so do so to your taste, regardless of what it is: its basically the law of production!)

I was reading a post on Reddit a few months back by a non-musician who was fascinated with the studio world and I initially knee-jerked to his depiction of recorded music, essentially saying it’s all a lie and nothing what you hear actually sounds like that in the room. Once my knee was done jerking I couldn’t disagree, even if you’re doing just basic lo/hi cuts, it’s still not a representation of what was in the room.

And I’ve long been saying that vocals are a shitload of smoke and mirrors of mic gain, compression and reverb that give the idea someone is considerably louder than they actually are, for years. So many vocal tracks that sound like they’re being belted out at a blaring volume are barely above speaking level, but with enough drama in the performance and enough reverb to sound like a voice is bouncing off the walls and it sounds quite different.

 

[AutomationBias]

Hey now! It's not so bad!

I bought this at a flea market 30+ years ago. Solid state Radio Shack (aka "Realistic") outboard spring reverb.

 

[metropolis_4]

For my guitar I only use reverb as a special effect. That almost always means either spring or big spacey ambient with lots of movement and texture.

FWIW my Surfybear Classic Deluxe has a decay control and it works great, so it is possible to have that on a spring reverb.

I just put that back on the board (swapped out my Dark Star Stereo) and I’d forgotten how much I love that sound. It’s never coming off again

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

FWIW my Surfybear Classic Deluxe has a decay control and it works great, so it is possible to have that on a spring reverb.

Pretty sure that's just a gate to chop off the tail?