OK, experts... Please tell me what gain is. I've been playing for almost 50 years and have no clue...

[bukowski]

I have no idea which amp manufacturer began the practice of labeling the first volume control in the signal chain "gain," but that choice has led to the widely-held misunderstanding that the term "gain" means "distortion." It does not.

I thought I was losing my mind ! Still am, but this makes me feel a lot better...

The term "gain" as applied to electronic circuits has well-defined meanings: it is the amount by which a circuit increases the input voltage or current, expressed as a ratio or in logarithmic (decibel, aka "dB") notation. In most audio applications - including electric guitar - the term "gain" when applied to a complete amplification system refers to voltage gain: the ratio of output voltage to input voltage. You can't drive a speaker with the output of your guitar; its output must first be amplified. As an aside, gain is always frequency-dependent, which is another way of saying that a device's magnitude response is not flat. Gain may be constant over a wide range of frequencies - e.g., in a quality power amplifier - but it is never the same for all frequencies.

Practical amplifier circuits always consist of multiple active stages, each one of which produces some amount of gain. The apportionment of gain among the various stages is known as gain structure. Gain structure determines the noise performance of a system as well as the relative clip points of the stages. If you want the output stage to be able to deliver the maximum possible power without clipping to the load (speaker in our case), you need to have enough gain margin in prior stages to make sure the output stage is the first one to clip. Almost all, if not all, of the original guitar amps were gain-staged in this way: as you turn up the volume control - which actually reduces attenuation of the signal at that point in the chain - the first stage to clip is the output stage. Believe it or not, the objective of all these designs when they originated was to minimize distortion and noise.

As guitar players increased their playing volume - in many cases because they were playing in ever-larger venues - the distortion that inevitably appeared was more and more noticeable and gradually became an accepted part of the music they played. No guitar player ever gave much thought to gain structure, nor would it have mattered, as there was no easy way to change it. Master volumes didn't yet exist. There were some tricks played to get more distortion in recorded sounds without endangering the amp or speaker. The appearance of fuzztone pedals came about in the mid 1960s, and clean boost devices first showed up ca. 1971 (e.g., the Electro-Harmonix LPB-1).

Enter a bit of historical (non-)trivia: the band "Mountain" had a deal with Sunn and used their amplifiers. In advance of one tour - they were constantly touring ca. 1970-71 - they were supplied several Sunn PA heads, which were tube-type devices. The heads had several inputs, and each input had its own volume control. To control the overall level of the mixed signals, there was a - wait for it - master volume. Leslie West tried playing guitar through one of these heads and quickly discovered that he could get more overdive/distortion at lower volumes by running the channel volume high enough to clip downstream stages while adjusting his volume with the master. And the rest, as "they" say, is history....

Amazing people here, thank you so much for spelling this out for me ! This is great information....

 

[bukowski]

I wanna know what gain is / I want you to show me
I want to feel what gain is / I know you can crank it!

You are invited, bring some ear plugs... 100 watts is a lot in my little town-home.... Especially with the gain knob up !

Gain = Volume knob and or "clipping"....
Volume Knob = Volume knob and or "clipping"
Drive knob= Volume knob and or "clipping"
Level Knob= Volume knob and or "clipping"
Solo knob= Volume knob and or "clipping"...

So simple !

 

[Karl Houseknecht]

I really have no idea what "gain" is.

 

[Orvillain]

It's silly to speculate about things like that. Most of us understood that, just like driving your GTO (Pontiac, not Ferrari) at full throttle all the time and abusing the redline could blow up your motor ( Rev limiter? What's that?

), playing with everything on your amp max'ed out could fry your amp and/or cab.

I drive a Yaris.

 

[Elric]

Gain is the ratio of an output over its input. That’s what it means in electronics/engineering in general terms. In guitar terms: it means just about anything. :-/

 

[DISTORT6]

View attachment 55590

That's a lot of loads.
TWSS

 

[jay mitchell]

I drive a Yaris.

That's a pretty idiot-proof car. Will it automatically steer you back into your lane when you cross a lane line? Lots of new cars in the US do that,

 

[Orvillain]

That's a pretty idiot-proof car. Will it automatically steer you back into your lane when you cross a lane line? Lots of new cars in the US do that,

Yeah, I actually hate that feature though!! Several times it has tried to send me into oncoming traffic because of dual parked cars on the roads where I live. You kinda have to fight against it momentarily and then it gives up. Technology, heh.......

 

[Karl Houseknecht]

That's a lot of loads.
TWSS

 

[bukowski]

View attachment 55590

No gain, no pain....

 

[HotRats]

 

[hunga]

Don't worry about it.

 

[JiveTurkey]

Gain Is Life

 

[FuzzyAce]

Gain Is Life

*Volume

 

[László]

Gain Is Life

Ohhhh...there ain't no life nowhere.
-- J. Hendrix, 1967

 

[László]

I'll tell you what my problem is.

I just ran the above you tube video/song, and next up was Monty Python's "buying an ant in a department store" skit. I went down that rabbit hole and watched some more Monty Python skits, and then ad advertisement for a Disney movie about I-don't-know-what.

Just then my wife came into the room and said something that made no sense about what my daughter was talking about with her daughter, and that the snow plow man might block my car in, though my son in law said not to worry about it, so I said I wouldn't.

Then she left, and I'm now sitting here wondering what the f#ck the whole sequence was all about, when suddenly I noticed I'm still online on this very forum.

And you think you have troubles! I can't remember why I posted this. If I were you, I'd just ignore it.

Thank you and how do you like my new top hat?

"They can't see your new top hat."

"That's probably a good thing, isn't it?"

"I'll say, sir."

 

[bukowski]

I'll tell you what my problem is.

I just ran the above you tube video/song, and next up was Monty Python's "buying an ant in a department store" skit. I went down that rabbit hole and watched some more Monty Python skits, and then ad advertisement for a Disney movie about I-don't-know-what.

Just then my wife came into the room and said something that made no sense about what my daughter was talking about with her daughter, and that the snow plow man might block my car in, though my son in law said not to worry about it, so I said I wouldn't.

Then she left, and I'm now sitting here wondering what the f#ck the whole sequence was all about, when suddenly I noticed I'm still online on this very forum.

And you think you have troubles! I can't remember why I posted this. If I were you, I'd just ignore it.

Thank you and how do you like my new top hat?

"They can't see your new top hat."

"That's probably a good thing, isn't it?"

"I'll say, sir."

Not sure I'm following you here.. So, I'll just head out to cut down the mightiest tree in the forest with a herring... Now it makes sense !

 

[bukowski]

Major discoveries being made after posting this topic !!! I enabled the effects loop, something I've had turned off for many years. When this is turned on, you can shape your tone with Gain and Master (huge tonal variations with these two knobs.)---- The final volume knob, "Output" retains all these tonal vartiations from Gain and Master while just adjusting only volume. A little complicated, but it works. Mesa doesn't make it easy, but when you figure it all out its worth the effort..

In short, my monster 100 watt pig ---Big Iron-- Whatever you want to call it., has become my best practice amp... It sounds great loud and quiet, something most of my other amps cant do ! Bedroom volume, sounds great... Stadium volume, sounds even better ! I got the idea to turn on the effects loop from Andy Timmons...(and its not really for effects in this case)

Love this amp to death...

Thanks for all the help all....I get it now, it takes a while for my light bulb to go off, its slightly dim and getting old..

 

[bukowski]

*Volume

*Master
*Output

 

[bukowski]

This silly thread is brought to you by "Mesa Boogie" !!! They overly complicate things in an amazing way....