OK, experts... Please tell me what gain is. I've been playing for almost 50 years and have no clue...

From the Lonestar manual:

“Switching in the DRIVE control adds 2 more triode stages and an additional gain control to meter in the exact blend of smooth singing saturation.”

So yeah just another name for the same thing. Knowing the amp (or pedal) involved makes a big difference.

In the Mesa Marks, the Treble also acts as a gain control! :eek:

You own a time machine? Somehow you answered my question before I asked ! Look at the post below yours, Nice ! Back to the future?

Seriously though, thanks for the explanation. You answered my "drive question I said I wouldn't ask before I didn't ask it.
 
There is a limited edition "label maker" model of the pedal. Though IMO it's really ugly.


My suggestion is that if you like the D&M Drive (and it's a nice pedal, I used to own one) then you just slap some stickers over Mick and Dan. The orange color is IMO nice in person.

I can live with orange, its just the two cartoon faces that rub me the wrong way...I'm not sure why...

There are other pedals I've been considering.... .. (JHS Double Barrell has my interest too)
 
In fact, gain cranked on channel 1 is still clean.. And yes there is a drive knob too...I won't bother to ask what this does !
Allow me to explain:

As others have said, 'gain' is the word that has been around in audio since the beginning, and it is the same thing as 'volume'.

All amps preamplify a signal. A guitar signal is very, very quiet. The preamplifier raises the volume to the level where the amp can do its work in EQ, etc., sending the right volume to the output stage of the amplifier. The small tubes in your amp, the 12AX7s, are your preamp tubes. The four larger tubes are the power amp tubes, and there's also a Rectifier tube that can be switched in, or you can use a solid state rectifier that's built into the amp depending on how quickly you want the power tubes to act on the signal. The tube rectifier slows the initial note attack down a little bit.

The Presence control acts on the amplification section adding or reducing negative feedback to make the signal brighter or less bright in a different frequency area than the Treble control or the bright switch (if there is one).

A boost pedal is simply a volume control. It amplifies the signal BEFORE the signal hits the preamp; therefore it operates on V1, the preamplifier tube that provides much of the gain to the parts of the preamp that follow it. A boost pedal distorts V1 and therefore, the tubes that follow it.

A Mesa uses 'cascading gain' to make one stage of amplification hit another stage of amplification adding distortion to the signal.

On the Lone Star, the clean gain control distorts less because the amp is set up to distort less in its range of operation. The Lead gain control operates to distort the preamp far more quickly.

In the lead channel, the drive knob simply adds another tube distortion stage to the signal over and above the gain control. Simple as that. There are several choices regarding how much more gain you want to add. You can add this to Channel two by moving the switch that chooses it to the left.

Once you do that, the switch below it allows you to select different ranges of gain, and the drive knob allows you to control those stages.

None of the drive controls affect the clean channel.

The channel 'masters' on the Lone Star are there to:

a. Balance the level of the channels whether or not using the global master volume on the right of the amp's panel; and/or

b. Every volume control adds another layer of amplification to a signal. The Lone Star gives you the option to bypass the amp's global Master and effects loop for a signal with fewer gain stages. I run my Lone Star this way because I don't need tons of gain for my style of music, and I don't use effects loops. I like running my effects into the front of the amp where the gain stages in the preamp affect them. There's no right or wrong to this, it's just how I roll.

All you're doing when adding gain is, as others have said, adding volume to the next stage, or in the case of master volume, to the output tubes.

So here's what's happening with gain, and multiple gain stages:

As you add gain to a tube, it begins to 'clip'. 'Clipping' describes the top of a tube's sine wave becoming squared off, eventually becoming a square wave. What's that? A fuzz box does the very same thing; converts a sine wave to a square wave.

When you turn the gain up on a tube amplifier, the signal becomes more compressed - meaning, there's less dynamic range (dynamic range can be thought of as the difference between how loud and how soft a signal is).

Compression is desired when you want a signal to sustain ('sing') more - that's because compression increases the amount of time it takes for a note to decay. It does this because as dynamic range is decreased, soft signals that are compressed become louder in addition to loud signals becoming less loud. It's not much different than how a studio compressor works - it's merely akin to an automatic volume control.

So jazzers want a note to decay quickly and sound more acoustic; they prefer clean amps, often solid state amps. Rock players often want a note to carry and sustain longer, so for players desiring that, compression is good.

Country players like compression before the signal hits an amp because they can pick hard and clean at gig volume without blowing an audience's ears out, or soft and still be heard. Pedals are usually used to achieve this. Remember that clean signals have more dynamic range, dirty signals less dynamic range; just the nature of how tubes behave.

Increasing the gain to clipping also reduces high frequencies in the signal itself, and increases the relative amount of bass. However, a distorted tube adds its own high frequency harmonics to the fundamental signal. This is why, once the gain is up, electric guitars start to sound more like the amplifier they're driving and less like the acoustic instruments they're similar to.

What are harmonics? They're the overtones that allow you to distinguish, say, a flute from a guitar playing the same note. That's the main reason why instruments sound different from one another, though there are also other reasons, such as what happens at the attack of a note. There's a ton of information about harmonics on the web if you care to delve further into all this.

One last thing: A tube amplifier runs at around 10% or more distortion of the signal even when it's supposedly 'clean'.This distortion colors the signal.

By way of contrast, a typical hi-fi amplifier runs at less than 1% distortion even with a loud signal. This is why a clean guitar amp sounds different from running your guitar into a hi fi amp (or recording console). The more you drive the tubes, the more distortion you add to the signal, thus coloring it more.

I hope this helps.

My Lone Star is the tan amp close to the middle between the rack and the black cabinet in this pic; I've had it for about ten years. They're great amps.

a0saLNm.jpeg
 
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Allow me to explain:

As others have said, 'gain' is the word that has been around in audio since the beginning, and it is the same thing as 'volume'.

All amps preamplify a signal. A guitar signal is very, very quiet. The preamplifier raises the volume to the level where the amp can do its work in EQ, etc., sending the right volume to the output stage of the amplifier. The small tubes in your amp, the 12AX7s, are your preamp tubes. The four larger tubes are the power amp tubes, and there's also a Rectifier tube that can be switched in, or you can use a solid state rectifier that's built into the amp depending on how quickly you want the power tubes to act on the signal. The tube rectifier slows the initial note attack down a little bit.

The Presence control acts on the amplification section adding or reducing negative feedback to make the signal brighter or less bright in a different frequency area than the Treble control or the bright switch (if there is one).

A boost pedal is simply a volume control. It amplifies the signal BEFORE the signal hits the preamp; therefore it operates on V1, the preamplifier tube that provides much of the gain to the parts of the preamp that follow it. A boost pedal distorts V1 and therefore, the tubes that follow it.

A Mesa uses 'cascading gain' to make one stage of amplification hit another stage of amplification adding distortion to the signal.

On the Lone Star, the clean gain control distorts less because the amp is set up to distort less in its range of operation. The Lead gain control operates to distort the preamp far more quickly.

In the lead channel, the drive knob simply adds another tube distortion stage to the signal over and above the gain control. Simple as that. There are several choices regarding how much more gain you want to add. You can add this to Channel two by moving the switch that chooses it to the left.

Once you do that, the switch below it allows you to select different ranges of gain, and the drive knob allows you to control those stages.

None of the drive controls affect the clean channel.

The channel 'masters' on the Lone Star are there to:

a. Balance the level of the channels whether or not using the global master volume on the right of the amp's panel; and/or

b. Every volume control adds another layer of amplification to a signal. The Lone Star gives you the option to bypass the amp's global Master and effects loop for a signal with fewer gain stages. I run my Lone Star this way because I don't need tons of gain for my style of music, and I don't use effects loops. I like running my effects into the front of the amp where the gain stages in the preamp affect them. There's no right or wrong ti this, it's just how I roll.

All you're doing when adding gain is, as others have said, adding volume to the next stage, or in the case of master volume, to the output tubes.

So here's what's happening with gain, and multiple gain stages:

As you add gain to a tube, it begins to 'clip'. 'Clipping' describes the top of a tube's sine wave becoming squared off, eventually becoming a square wave. What's that? A fuzz box does the very same thing; converts a sine wave to a square wave.

When you turn the gain up on a tube amplifier, the signal becomes more compressed - meaning, there's less dynamic range (dynamic range can be thought of as the difference between how loud and how soft a signal is).

Compression is desired when you want a signal to sustain ('sing') more - that's because compression increases the amount of time it takes for a note to decay. It does this because as dynamic range is decreased, soft signals that are compressed become louder in addition to loud signals becoming less loud. It's not much different than how a studio compressor works - it's merely akin to an automatic volume control.

So jazzers want a note to decay quickly and sound more acoustic; they prefer clean amps, often solid state amps. Rock players often want a note to carry and sustain longer, so for players desiring that, compression is good.

Country players like compression before the signal hits an amp because they can pick hard and clean at gig volume without blowing an audience's ears out, or soft and still be heard. Pedals are usually used to achieve this.

Increasing the gain to clipping also reduces high frequencies in the signal itself, and increases the relative amount of bass. However, a distorted tube adds its own high frequency harmonics to the fundamental signal. This is why, once the gain is up, electric guitars start to sound more like the amplifier they're driving and less like the acoustic instruments they're similar to.

What are harmonics? They're the overtones that allow you to distinguish, say, a flute from a guitar playing the same note. That's the main reason why instruments sound different from one another, though there are also other reasons, such as what happens at the attack of a note. There's a ton of information about harmonics on the web if you care to delve further into all this.

One last thing: A tube amplifier runs at around 10% or more distortion of the signal even when it's supposedly 'clean'.This distortion colors the signal.

By way of contrast, a typical hi-fi amplifier runs at less than 1% distortion even with a loud signal. This is why a clean guitar amp sounds different from running your guitar into a hi fi amp (or recording console). The more you drive the tubes, the more distortion you add to the signal, thus coloring it more.

I hope this helps.

My Lone Star is the tan amp close to the middle between the rack and the black cabinet in this pic; I've had it for about ten years. They're great amps.

a0saLNm.jpeg
Nice room!
 
Thanks Ed!

It's great to see you here - you probably wouldn't remember me - LSchefman on TGP - I haven't posted there in a very long time. However, I've always appreciated your insights, commentary and expertise regarding music and tone-related things!

I remember that name, though I spend far less time there than I used to myself. It’s not the same place it once was.
 
I remember that name, though I spend far less time there than I used to myself. It’s not the same place it once was.
It isn't. It became vast and as with too many things internet-related, interactions often became very testy (not that I was ever a wonderful person, but I guess many are even less patient with the opinions of others!).
 
It isn't. It became vast and as with too many things internet-related, interactions often became very testy (not that I was ever a wonderful person, but I guess many are even less patient with the opinions of others!).

I think it was where all the broken toys landed after Harmony Central imploded, and the place has been in a steady decline ever since.
 
Thanks Ed!

It's great to see you here - you probably wouldn't remember me - LSchefman on TGP - I haven't posted there in a very long time. However, I've always appreciated your insights, commentary and expertise regarding music and tone-related things!
I sure AF remember you. Cool that you're here now!
 
Allow me to explain:

As others have said, 'gain' is the word that has been around in audio since the beginning, and it is the same thing as 'volume'.


All amps preamplify a signal. A guitar signal is very, very quiet. The preamplifier raises the volume to the level where the amp can do its work in EQ, etc., sending the right volume to the output stage of the amplifier. The small tubes in your amp, the 12AX7s, are your preamp tubes. The four larger tubes are the power amp tubes, and there's also a Rectifier tube that can be switched in, or you can use a solid state rectifier that's built into the amp depending on how quickly you want the power tubes to act on the signal. The tube rectifier slows the initial note attack down a little bit.

The Presence control acts on the amplification section adding or reducing negative feedback to make the signal brighter or less bright in a different frequency area than the Treble control or the bright switch (if there is one).

A boost pedal is simply a volume control. It amplifies the signal BEFORE the signal hits the preamp; therefore it operates on V1, the preamplifier tube that provides much of the gain to the parts of the preamp that follow it. A boost pedal distorts V1 and therefore, the tubes that follow it.

A Mesa uses 'cascading gain' to make one stage of amplification hit another stage of amplification adding distortion to the signal.

On the Lone Star, the clean gain control distorts less because the amp is set up to distort less in its range of operation. The Lead gain control operates to distort the preamp far more quickly.

In the lead channel, the drive knob simply adds another tube distortion stage to the signal over and above the gain control. Simple as that. There are several choices regarding how much more gain you want to add. You can add this to Channel two by moving the switch that chooses it to the left.

Once you do that, the switch below it allows you to select different ranges of gain, and the drive knob allows you to control those stages.

None of the drive controls affect the clean channel.

The channel 'masters' on the Lone Star are there to:

a. Balance the level of the channels whether or not using the global master volume on the right of the amp's panel; and/or

b. Every volume control adds another layer of amplification to a signal. The Lone Star gives you the option to bypass the amp's global Master and effects loop for a signal with fewer gain stages. I run my Lone Star this way because I don't need tons of gain for my style of music, and I don't use effects loops. I like running my effects into the front of the amp where the gain stages in the preamp affect them. There's no right or wrong to this, it's just how I roll.

All you're doing when adding gain is, as others have said, adding volume to the next stage, or in the case of master volume, to the output tubes.

So here's what's happening with gain, and multiple gain stages:

As you add gain to a tube, it begins to 'clip'. 'Clipping' describes the top of a tube's sine wave becoming squared off, eventually becoming a square wave. What's that? A fuzz box does the very same thing; converts a sine wave to a square wave.

When you turn the gain up on a tube amplifier, the signal becomes more compressed - meaning, there's less dynamic range (dynamic range can be thought of as the difference between how loud and how soft a signal is).

Compression is desired when you want a signal to sustain ('sing') more - that's because compression increases the amount of time it takes for a note to decay. It does this because as dynamic range is decreased, soft signals that are compressed become louder in addition to loud signals becoming less loud. It's not much different than how a studio compressor works - it's merely akin to an automatic volume control.

So jazzers want a note to decay quickly and sound more acoustic; they prefer clean amps, often solid state amps. Rock players often want a note to carry and sustain longer, so for players desiring that, compression is good.

Country players like compression before the signal hits an amp because they can pick hard and clean at gig volume without blowing an audience's ears out, or soft and still be heard. Pedals are usually used to achieve this. Remember that clean signals have more dynamic range, dirty signals less dynamic range; just the nature of how tubes behave.

Increasing the gain to clipping also reduces high frequencies in the signal itself, and increases the relative amount of bass. However, a distorted tube adds its own high frequency harmonics to the fundamental signal. This is why, once the gain is up, electric guitars start to sound more like the amplifier they're driving and less like the acoustic instruments they're similar to.

What are harmonics? They're the overtones that allow you to distinguish, say, a flute from a guitar playing the same note. That's the main reason why instruments sound different from one another, though there are also other reasons, such as what happens at the attack of a note. There's a ton of information about harmonics on the web if you care to delve further into all this.

One last thing: A tube amplifier runs at around 10% or more distortion of the signal even when it's supposedly 'clean'.This distortion colors the signal.

By way of contrast, a typical hi-fi amplifier runs at less than 1% distortion even with a loud signal. This is why a clean guitar amp sounds different from running your guitar into a hi fi amp (or recording console). The more you drive the tubes, the more distortion you add to the signal, thus coloring it more.

I hope this helps.

My Lone Star is the tan amp close to the middle between the rack and the black cabinet in this pic; I've had it for about ten years. They're great amps.

a0saLNm.jpeg



OK, I think we are done here ! This is a perfect explanation coming from someone that owns a Lonestar and understands the complexity of this amp (as well as it's oddities)

I get it completely now, in fact much of this was already known to me... This just reinforces it.. As you can see, it does operate a little differently than many amps do as far as "gain" knobs act...I read your post completely, didn't feel the need to respond line for line, but was tempted to... I understand the tube rectifier and silicon diode alternative, compression (use a Diamond Optical).. dark and bright options for reverb, tweed settings, thick and thicker drive settings, effects loop on off, lead volume control, etc... etc.... It was just the gain that had me scratching my head a bit...

Beautiful room with acoustics and everything, very nice ! Thanks again man, I think this covers everything completely. I'm good now ! Yes, the Lonestar is by far my favorite and I have many...Glad to know you enjoy yours too...
 
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I have no idea which amp manufacturer began the practice of labeling the first volume control in the signal chain "gain," but that choice has led to the widely-held misunderstanding that the term "gain" means "distortion." It does not.

The term "gain" as applied to electronic circuits has well-defined meanings: it is the amount by which a circuit increases the input voltage or current, expressed as a ratio or in logarithmic (decibel, aka "dB") notation. In most audio applications - including electric guitar - the term "gain" when applied to a complete amplification system refers to voltage gain: the ratio of output voltage to input voltage. You can't drive a speaker with the output of your guitar; its output must first be amplified. As an aside, gain is always frequency-dependent, which is another way of saying that a device's magnitude response is not flat. Gain may be constant over a wide range of frequencies - e.g., in a quality power amplifier - but it is never the same for all frequencies.

Practical amplifier circuits always consist of multiple active stages, each one of which produces some amount of gain. The apportionment of gain among the various stages is known as gain structure. Gain structure determines the noise performance of a system as well as the relative clip points of the stages. If you want the output stage to be able to deliver the maximum possible power without clipping to the load (speaker in our case), you need to have enough gain margin in prior stages to make sure the output stage is the first one to clip. Almost all, if not all, of the original guitar amps were gain-staged in this way: as you turn up the volume control - which actually reduces attenuation of the signal at that point in the chain - the first stage to clip is the output stage. Believe it or not, the objective of all these designs when they originated was to minimize distortion and noise.

As guitar players increased their playing volume - in many cases because they were playing in ever-larger venues - the distortion that inevitably appeared was more and more noticeable and gradually became an accepted part of the music they played. No guitar player ever gave much thought to gain structure, nor would it have mattered, as there was no easy way to change it. Master volumes didn't yet exist. There were some tricks played to get more distortion in recorded sounds without endangering the amp or speaker. The appearance of fuzztone pedals came about in the mid 1960s, and clean boost devices first showed up ca. 1971 (e.g., the Electro-Harmonix LPB-1).

Enter a bit of historical (non-)trivia: the band "Mountain" had a deal with Sunn and used their amplifiers. In advance of one tour - they were constantly touring ca. 1970-71 - they were supplied several Sunn PA heads, which were tube-type devices. The heads had several inputs, and each input had its own volume control. To control the overall level of the mixed signals, there was a - wait for it - master volume. Leslie West tried playing guitar through one of these heads and quickly discovered that he could get more overdive/distortion at lower volumes by running the channel volume high enough to clip downstream stages while adjusting his volume with the master. And the rest, as "they" say, is history....
 
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