OK, experts... Please tell me what gain is. I've been playing for almost 50 years and have no clue...

[FuzzyAce]

This silly thread is brought to you by "Mesa Boogie" !!! They overly complicate things in an amazing way....

This is the Official Unofficial Mesa Forum. Nothing is too silly.

 

[0XI0]

The gain knob on my Mesa acts like a volume control, and a dramatic tone shifter

food for thought, all the knobs on the mesa are potentiometers, which are variable resistors. so turning up a gain knob is reducing attentuator of that gain stage. there's a cool thing you can do with potentiometers is use a capacitor across the output in a certain way and it makes a variable resistor capacitor network (RC network), since the value of the pot resistance changes as you turn it. basically the capacitor acts with the pot to a little EQ circuit, and dump low frequency to ground, they call it a "high pass". or in a guitar pot a "treble bleed". in a guitar amp they call it a "bright cap". when the knob is maxed out the circuit is deactivated, no resistance. as you turn the knob down the resistance increases (variable resistor), and the bigger the resistance value, the stronger the capacitor works to dump signal at the set frequency. it's pretty cool, caveman tech.

there is a drive knob too...I won't bother to ask what this does

Gain = Volume knob and or "clipping"....
Volume Knob = Volume knob and or "clipping"
Drive knob= Volume knob and or "clipping"
Level Knob= Volume knob and or "clipping"
Solo knob= Volume knob and or "clipping"...

So simple !

the textbook definition of "gain" applies to all of the above, signal amplification or (most always) reduced attenuation of gain. any knob on an amp is gonna be a potentiometer, and that pot is gonna be an attentuator for a gain stage, where that gain stage is set to do what it does with the pot maxed out (no resistance), and the pot just attenuates down from max.

confusion is from missing the context or awareness of context, context being the gain "structure" and gain "staging". meaning there's way more than one gain stage, and depending on gain structure, gain adjustment at a given stage will have a different sonic affect. hence the half dozen descriptors.

volume and level are most used for how loud you want it.
gain and drive are most used for how distorted (and compressed) you want it.

but there's also a missing context of "is this thing even designed for distortion" or not. cause like on little tweed, volume is the distortion. they didn't have a clean channel and a dirty channel then lol. hence some current label confusion... on studio preamp, the primary gain control is still labeled volume. cause on the clean channel that's all it does. but the lead channel adds gain stages, clean channel becomes distortion channel, now that volume knob controls how distorted the sound is, where another knob controls how loud the sound is, by attenuation down at the end, after the distortion, usually called level now.

 

[laxu]

Major discoveries being made after posting this topic !!! I enabled the effects loop, something I've had turned off for many years. When this is turned on, you can shape your tone with Gain and Master (huge tonal variations with these two knobs.)---- The final volume knob, "Output" retains all these tonal vartiations from Gain and Master while just adjusting only volume. A little complicated, but it works. Mesa doesn't make it easy, but when you figure it all out its worth the effort..

Mesa really does complicate things by calling the "channel volume" a "master" on many of their amps. It makes absolutely no sense when combined with the "global master" aka "output volume". Then throw in the "solo volume" feature that stacks on top of the "output volume" setting for maximum confusion!

The Solo volume bugs the hell out of me on my Mark V. All I know is that "anything on this knob makes it louder than the Output volume setting", but by how much? No idea unless I measure with a decibel meter.

It would be a lot more understandable if it was simply Gain -> Ch. Level -> Output 1 / Output 2 where you can just switch between two output levels and can see their relationship. At least they went for that dual master thing on their newer amps. Until they fucked it all up by leaving the Output volume out of the Mark VII...

 

[bukowski]

food for thought, all the knobs on the mesa are potentiometers, which are variable resistors. so turning up a gain knob is reducing attentuator of that gain stage. there's a cool thing you can do with potentiometers is use a capacitor across the output in a certain way and it makes a variable resistor capacitor network (RC network), since the value of the pot resistance changes as you turn it. basically the capacitor acts with the pot to a little EQ circuit, and dump low frequency to ground, they call it a "high pass". or in a guitar pot a "treble bleed". in a guitar amp they call it a "bright cap". when the knob is maxed out the circuit is deactivated, no resistance. as you turn the knob down the resistance increases (variable resistor), and the bigger the resistance value, the stronger the capacitor works to dump signal at the set frequency. it's pretty cool, caveman tech.

Not many will be honest enough to admit their level of stupidity. I myself have no problem with this..

I read this four times and understand it less than I did reading it the first time, apparently I have a lot of learning to do ! So, what I'll do it cut and paste this paragraph and start studying up ! Love it man, thanks..... I like a challenge, and I like learning...

Side note: there is a "bright cap" mod that is done to this amp often. I think it has to do with some of the things you mention above (that I don't understand,------Yet !)

the textbook definition of "gain" applies to all of the above, signal amplification or (most always) reduced attenuation of gain. any knob on an amp is gonna be a potentiometer, and that pot is gonna be an attentuator for a gain stage, where that gain stage is set to do what it does with the pot maxed out (no resistance), and the pot just attenuates down from max.

I am playing with this idea and to understand it better I've decided to add a 4th volume knob (or attenuator as you describe it_)... I am using a Diamond Compressor with the Volume on 10... So, I have the gain on my amp around 11:00 and am slamming the front with the diamond acting as a boost... It is mind blowing to see what this does to the amp...

I'll also try my Soul Food next to see how it's "boost" compares to the diamond....

confusion is from missing the context or awareness of context, context being the gain "structure" and gain "staging". meaning there's way more than one gain stage, and depending on gain structure, gain adjustment at a given stage will have a different sonic affect. hence the half dozen descriptors.

Yes, I think this is really more about terminology and definitions at this point... So far, many here have helped to explain what everything does.. So, I'm not so hung up on the knob label anymore--- as long as I understand their purpose..

volume and level are most used for how loud you want it.
gain and drive are most used for how distorted (and compressed) you want it.

Roger that----- My major discovery is how much the "gain" (which I thought of as volume with this amp) changes everything... Both the amp knob (gain) and my pedals boosting the signal.. Its crazy how much variation occurs here..

but there's also a missing context of "is this thing even designed for distortion" or not. cause like on little tweed, volume is the distortion. they didn't have a clean channel and a dirty channel then lol. hence some current label confusion... on studio preamp, the primary gain control is still labeled volume. cause on the clean channel that's all it does. but the lead channel adds gain stages, clean channel becomes distortion channel, now that volume knob controls how distorted the sound is, where another knob controls how loud the sound is, by attenuation down at the end, after the distortion, usually called level now.

Ok, now to make it fun----my Mesa has a "tweed" selector switch as well... I use this almost all the time, because I like it.... Not sure if this ties in to what you talk about with the little tweed, but as I understand it , the tweed knob turns down the juice---slightly starving the amp which has a nice effect on tone.. I digress, sorry... I hear what your saying though

 

[bukowski]

Mesa really does complicate things by calling the "channel volume" a "master" on many of their amps. It makes absolutely no sense when combined with the "global master" aka "output volume". Then throw in the "solo volume" feature that stacks on top of the "output volume" setting for maximum confusion!

The Solo volume bugs the hell out of me on my Mark V. All I know is that "anything on this knob makes it louder than the Output volume setting", but by how much? No idea unless I measure with a decibel meter.

It would be a lot more understandable if it was simply Gain -> Ch. Level -> Output 1 / Output 2 where you can just switch between two output levels and can see their relationship. At least they went for that dual master thing on their newer amps. Until they fucked it all up by leaving the Output volume out of the Mark VII...

Had me scratching my head that's for sure. And I'm the kind of guy that loves to read manuals... One of the points the manual is trying to make is the huge impact "gain" has on tone... I've always ignored this advice and kept my gain knob low to keep volume reasonable... This was a huge F up on my end and Mesa tried to tell me ! Now, with the gain up and volume controlled in other ways, my Mesa is coming alive ! Holy *(@##... I'm playing single coils and getting glorious, thick, chewy overdrive that I never knew this amp could do...

I always thought the drive knob was a little weak with this amp....Not anymore ! With the gain up it gets really crunchy fast..... (in a nice way too)..

Mesa you Dumbass----
---------------------------
Mesa you Genius----

It was me that was the DA in the end... Not Mesa, although Mesa is a DA for making things so confusing.. Which makes me look a like a DA here...Side note: I have no problem with this---(being a DA that is)..

 

[HotRats]

Next time you buy an, amp read the manual but also turn those knobs all the way up, all the way down, switch all the switches and learn what they do by ear.

There's often quite a bit of interaction between controls and manuals might not tell you that.

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

This silly thread is brought to you by "Mesa Boogie" !!! They overly complicate things in an amazing way....

Likely by Belvedere or Chopin vodka.

 

[bukowski]

Next time you buy an, amp read the manual but also turn those knobs all the way up, all the way down, switch all the switches and learn what they do by ear.

I've owned this amp for over 10 years and have been playing it daily. That's 3650 hours logged on the Lonestar. (conservative estimate)

I've been turning knobs all this time and have found tones that work, BUT it wasn't until I read the manual years later that I started thinking more about the gain knob.. I've kept it low acting as a volume knob, which was a huge mistake.

There's often quite a bit of interaction between controls and manuals might not tell you that.

Funny you mention this, the Lonestar manual explains how all the controls interact ! The have a very well written manual... (attached here)

I own many amps, most of them are very straightforward and easy to figure out. There are only so many directions to go in with my other amps... The Lonestar is different... Every knob interacts with other knobs, meaning all the combinations can get out of hand fast.. Decision paralysis if that makes sense...


https://www.manualslib.com/manual/102345/Mesa-Boogie-Lonestar-Amplifier.html

 

[László]

Major discoveries being made after posting this topic !!! I enabled the effects loop, something I've had turned off for many years. When this is turned on, you can shape your tone with Gain and Master (huge tonal variations with these two knobs.)---- The final volume knob, "Output" retains all these tonal vartiations from Gain and Master while just adjusting only volume. A little complicated, but it works. Mesa doesn't make it easy, but when you figure it all out its worth the effort..

In short, my monster 100 watt pig ---Big Iron-- Whatever you want to call it., has become my best practice amp... It sounds great loud and quiet, something most of my other amps cant do ! Bedroom volume, sounds great... Stadium volume, sounds even better ! I got the idea to turn on the effects loop from Andy Timmons...(and its not really for effects in this case)

Love this amp to death...

Thanks for all the help all....I get it now, it takes a while for my light bulb to go off, its slightly dim and getting old..


View attachment 55757

Gosh that amp is in fantastic shape! I salute your attention to detail!

 

[László]

It would be a lot more understandable if it was simply Gain -> Ch. Level -> Output 1 / Output 2 where you can just switch between two output levels and can see their relationship.

Certainly easier to understand that way, but once the relative volume levels of each channel are set, the advantage of a global master is not having to change the channel master balances to set the overall volume of the amp the way you need it from situation to situation, such as room size, or how loudly you can play at home, etc.

For me, however, setting up each amp for a given room and guitar is still a mandatory thing. So the usefulness of a global master is going to vary from person to person. I guess if all one wants to do is turn the volume down because someone else needs quiet the global master is a good thing.

At least they went for that dual master thing on their newer amps. Until they fucked it all up by leaving the Output volume out of the Mark VII...

In one of his videos, Randall Smith said that he felt the simpler the circuit, the better the tone, so he was out to do that. However, there are still ten zillion bells and whistles on the VII, so I dunno what gozinta what or gozouta which.

Having owned (and very much liked!) a Mark V, and now a Mark VII, the advantages of the Mark VII (speaking only for myself here) is that it does seem to have a different kind of transparency, and it's nice to have three channels I can set up and use in my work, which is mostly not high gain. I didn't find the V's Channel 3 very useful in my context.

This isn't a knock on the V. We're all into our own things, and whatever works, works. The Mark V is certainly a classic, great amp. In a different way, so is the VII.

 

[maddnotez]

Not that anyone needs my .02, I know nothing about amp building and theres 5 pages of replies so im sure the answer is here.

My take on it is there is a discrepancy between gain being volume and distortion. I believe it's one of those definitions that has evolved over time. For the very first amp made, probably a Fender? Doubt that had any distortion at all and volume was labeled gain. In modern times people refer to gain as distortion usually.

 

[FuzzyAce]

My take on it is there is a discrepancy between gain being volume and distortion. I believe it's one of those definitions that has evolved over time. For the very first amp made, probably a Fender? Doubt that had any distortion at all and volume was labeled gain. In modern times people refer to gain as distortion usually.

Maybe think of it as: distortion = a characteristic of an amp circuit, gain = the function of an amp circuit, volume = the sum of the amp circuit.
Kinda basic, but adds a bit more context to the terms. I guess it really doesn't matter, as long as the user can get the sounds they want by twiddling knobs that happen to have labels on them.

 

[Fireproof]

This is the Official Unofficial Mesa Forum. Nothing is too silly.

*ORIGINAL!!

 

[FuzzyAce]

*ORIGINAL!!

SORRY!

 

[bukowski]

Gosh that amp is in fantastic shape! I salute your attention to detail!

The only thing that is a bit beaten up is the leather handle... So, I removed it and now it looks mint. This is a first generation Lonestar without the 10 watt option... (I wouldn't mind having this)

Thanks for the compliment ! Paid $700 for this thing too, great deal.

 

[bukowski]

Not that anyone needs my .02, I know nothing about amp building and theres 5 pages of replies so im sure the answer is here.

My take on it is there is a discrepancy between gain being volume and distortion. I believe it's one of those definitions that has evolved over time. For the very first amp made, probably a Fender? Doubt that had any distortion at all and volume was labeled gain. In modern times people refer to gain as distortion usually.

Yep, a lot of this is confusion coming from definitions and how things are labeled. It was never a problem for me until I owned this Mesa though...

What you are saying is exactly what I was saying when I started the thread ! I showed a DOD overdrive pedal---- The overdrive is labeled as gain. I always considered gain to be overdrive/distortion--- not really volume-- although turning up gain does increase volume. I get it now, many here have explained it well.

 

[laxu]

Certainly easier to understand that way, but once the relative volume levels of each channel are set, the advantage of a global master is not having to change the channel master balances to set the overall volume of the amp the way you need it from situation to situation, such as room size, or how loudly you can play at home, etc.

I was musing more on the Output vs Solo functionality vs having dual global masters like on the V:35. The "Solo 1/2" system makes it easier to understand the relationship of the two as you can see immediately that "ok, if I select Solo 2, it's louder than Solo 1". With the V:90 Solo is always louder than Output but there's no good measure of "how much".

For me, however, setting up each amp for a given room and guitar is still a mandatory thing. So the usefulness of a global master is going to vary from person to person. I guess if all one wants to do is turn the volume down because someone else needs quiet the global master is a good thing.


In one of his videos, Randall Smith said that he felt the simpler the circuit, the better the tone, so he was out to do that. However, there are still ten zillion bells and whistles on the VII, so I dunno what gozinta what or gozouta which.

The effect of the V's loop/master/solo circuit is pretty marginal. I feel I can negate it by turning up presence just slightly. Plus there are so many amps out there with global masters and switchable fx loops that it doesn't seem like something that would have to be removed.

I agree that the VII is not exactly simple in any way, and mostly seem to streamline out a lot of the component switching of the various V modes. I hope schematics eventually end up online so people can compare the V and VII circuits in detail.

 

[László]

I was musing more on the Output vs Solo functionality vs having dual global masters like on the V:35. The "Solo 1/2" system makes it easier to understand the relationship of the two as you can see immediately that "ok, if I select Solo 2, it's louder than Solo 1". With the V:90 Solo is always louder than Output but there's no good measure of "how much".

Very true. I suppose someone could use an SPL meter, but that's a cumbersome solution! Maybe a case for a high quality VU or LUF meter on a pro amp?

The effect of the V's loop/master/solo circuit is pretty marginal. I feel I can negate it by turning up presence just slightly. Plus there are so many amps out there with global masters and switchable fx loops that it doesn't seem like something that would have to be removed.

I agree, the difference is very small, and a lot depends on gain settings.

What I hear with the Lone Star with the master and fx loop isn't so much a frequency response difference, but a slight difference in clarity. The presence isn't designed to address that. Whether others would think it's significant is up to the person spending a lot of time with the amp in a variety of settings, I suppose.

I was surprised when talking with my son and his bandmate a few years ago (formerly in Portugal the Man) that all of us had switched the global master and fx loops out of the circuit on our Lone Stars, and none of us had discussed it with the others. Also all three of us had independently switched from 6L6s to EL34s.

Whether all three of us are crazy...well, of course we are, we're musicians!

In their case, they used the amp as single channel amps, more or less - they used only the dirty channels on their Lone Stars, and simply turned down the guitars to go clean, as I do with my two single channel amps. Before installing the EL34s I only used the clean channel on my Lone Star. Switching to EL34s made both channels usable (for me, YMMV, etc).

I agree that the VII is not exactly simple in any way, and mostly seem to streamline out a lot of the component switching of the various V modes. I hope schematics eventually end up online so people can compare the V and VII circuits in detail.

It'd be interesting!

Um...That is...for someone who knows how to read a schematic, which for me would be like translating ancient Sumerian cuneiform - i.e., something I have zero idea how to do!

 

[laxu]

Very true. I suppose someone could use an SPL meter, but that's a cumbersome solution! Maybe a case for a high quality VU or LUF meter on a pro amp?

I should probably take the time to see what happens at the slave out and how different settings play out in the room. Just have to dig out my earplugs first...

I agree, the difference is very small, and a lot depends on gain settings.

What I hear with the Lone Star with the master and fx loop isn't so much a frequency response difference, but a slight difference in clarity. The presence isn't designed to address that. Whether others would think it's significant is up to the person spending a lot of time with the amp in a variety of settings, I suppose.

I was surprised when talking with my son and his bandmate a few years ago (formerly in Portugal the Man) that all of us had switched the global master and fx loops out of the circuit on our Lone Stars, and none of us had discussed it with the others. Also all three of us had independently switched from 6L6s to EL34s.

Whether all three of us are crazy...well, of course we are, we're musicians!

Yeah I can agree that's kind of the effect. But I feel like tweaking the amp a bit gets you pretty close to how it sounds and that's good enough for me. The global master is way too useful for me to ignore.

In their case, they used the amp as single channel amps, more or less - they used only the dirty channels on their Lone Stars, and simply turned down the guitars to go clean, as I do with my two single channel amps. Before installing the EL34s I only used the clean channel on my Lone Star. Switching to EL34s made both channels usable (for me, YMMV, etc).


It'd be interesting!

Um...That is...for someone who knows how to read a schematic, which for me would be like translating ancient Sumerian cuneiform - i.e., something I have zero idea how to do!

If you want to learn, Rob Robinette's site is a true treasure trove of info. https://robrobinette.com/Amp_Stuff.htm

You can learn how the typical circuits around the gain stages and tone stacks work, and that already gives you a good bit of knowledge to look at e.g the Mesa Mark V schematic to get an idea what each channel does different from the others. It's a helluva lot more complicated to follow but if you look at just one channel and can trace that in your head, you can see it's basically 3 separate preamps with a pile of relay switching for the modes and some shared tube stages.

I admit that I am not able to explain the details of amp schematics, but I can get the basic gist of it well enough.

 

[László]

If you want to learn, Rob Robinette's site is a true treasure trove of info. https://robrobinette.com/Amp_Stuff.htm

You can learn how the typical circuits around the gain stages and tone stacks work, and that already gives you a good bit of knowledge to look at e.g the Mesa Mark V schematic to get an idea what each channel does different from the others. It's a helluva lot more complicated to follow but if you look at just one channel and can trace that in your head, you can see it's basically 3 separate preamps with a pile of relay switching for the modes and some shared tube stages.

This is a great link! Thanks!

Now all I have to do is get the old brain in gear and...uh...emphasis on 'old brain'.