Octave Technologies Haricane (modeling-ready Win 11 host in a small enclosure)

[Sascha Franck]

Yeah, but to be fair, you can get perfectly good portable instrument-level interfaces for, what? $100-ish?

If you want latencies <6ms at 44.1, you will have to add at least another 100 bucks.

Also, you will have to deal with a USB cable - either a wobbly affair or you'd have to build yourself a proper case.

 

[ian_dissonance]

For the price and if the audio is solid this is a cool device, hopefully they’re doing all the necessary optimization ahead of time and if it’s just a couple of channels of I/O that processor should be fine (given everything is optimized). Anecdotally, I’ve been running live shows for three bands off Windows laptops since W8 without a hiccup. If you were trying to do it with some off-the-shelf setup and the Home version of windows I could see issues coming up, but anyone who is using a laptop seriously for live isn’t using their porn and streaming box for live use no matter what your OS. I’ve got a 9 year old Yoga laptop that will run 10 audio tracks out and two live-processing channels, no issues, because it’s ONLY for live audio.

 

[mikah912]

Alright, while I agree on the rest of your post, switching is all up to the way the host handles things. And Gig Performer should be able to handle gapless switching just fine (possibly at the expense of reducing CPU power per patch/scene, kinda like the Helix does it). So these things are up to your host

Also, while I'm again not sure about how much CPU juice this thing will deliver, as a (very rough) figure: I can run a fully stuffed (so there's no more options to add anything in hardware compatibility mode) instance of Helix Native on my 2010 Mac Pro (hence on just one single core of the 2.66GHz CPU) under 44.1kHz @ 64 samples buffersize (RTL: 5.9ms).
An actual quad core Celeron should be able to deliver at least the same amount of performance.

Isn't your entire post from the Mac perspective when this is a Windows 11 machine?

 

[Sascha Franck]

Isn't your entire post from the Mac perspective when this is a Windows 11 machine?

In terms of raw single core power (which is the single most important thing with any such a machine) there's not much of a difference from my experience.

 

[mikah912]

In terms of raw single core power (which is the single most important thing with any such a machine) there's not much of a difference from my experience.

As a daily user of both a MacBook Pro and multiple Win 11 laptops, I'm going to have to disagree slightly.

ASIO drivers can be a crapshoot, and if the ones for this interface aren't superior now and kept tip-top going forward, you'll get more latency, audio pops and whatever else.

That's not me hating on Windows - my main DAW runs on a Win 11 laptop - but it is something I've observed across multiple interfaces and multiple OS versions.

 

[Sedaxel]

If you want latencies <6ms at 44.1, you will have to add at least another 100 bucks.

Also, you will have to deal with a USB cable - either a wobbly affair or you'd have to build yourself a proper case.

Not really. My EVO4 runs under 6 ms, and I´ve seen it 70€ used several times. New it costs little above 100€.

I even tried a Zoom U44 that was in that 6 ms ballpark.

Hell... I made a test using my Mooer GE250 as an audio interface with NAM, and it was 7 ms latency.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Hell... I made a test using my Mooer GE250 as an audio interface with NAM, and it was 7 ms latency.

Did you physically measure it with the Oblique utility (or otherwise)?

 

[Sascha Franck]

As a daily user of both a MacBook Pro and multiple Win 11 laptops, I'm going to have to disagree slightly.

Well, actual Macbooks are running a lot more stable than most Windows laptops - but then, this is why I took my 14 (!) year old machine for that example. Add to this that it's running a Xeon processor, which are absolutely fantastic for multithreading but defenitely not the hottest sh!t when it comes to single core power. In a nutshell: Pretty much any actual CPU should just blow the MP away. As a rough figure: Even the first generation M1 Macbook Air is delivering roughly 3 x the single core oomph (I've set up some tests relevant for audio performance to find out myself).

ASIO drivers can be a crapshoot, and if the ones for this interface aren't superior now and kept tip-top going forward, you'll get more latency, audio pops and whatever else.

I agree on some ASIO drivers, but well written ones will usually deliver a slightly better performance than their macOS counterparts (assuming the company is not asking you to use stock Core Audio). Until this day, lowest possible latencies are achieved under Windows and ASIO. Doesn't matter much, it's usually really just a millisecond or two of a difference, but still, in case the driver is programmed properly, ASIO is a pretty mature protocol.
Now, lowest possible latencies obviously still don't tell you much about stability, but Win11 along with proper drivers seems to be doing pretty well, especially in case you don't ruin the system with all sorts of things (which you obviously wouldn't do with such a device).

And fwiw, personally, I do by now somewhat prefer macOS over Windows (my main reason for using a Mac is Logic, though, couldn't care too much about the OS), but I'm quite sure that a dedicated Win11 system with no bloat will be pretty stable.
Besides, unlike macOS, Windows allows for such machines to even exist. No way to slap something comparable together using a Mac. Ok, with some efforts, a Mac Mini might do, but it'd be larger and vastly more expensive.

Seriously, such a device, if constructed well enough, would almost be a dream come true for me. I have been tinkering with. the idea of slapping a computer based setup together myself, but everything I came up with was either too uncomfortable to deal with or quite expensive.

 

[Will Chen]

It looks cool & all but I would not trust a product running Windows 11 for my live rig. At least not in this form factor. I give my 5700X a good run for its money to keep up with my jamming preset / chain at low latency and that's on a proper desktop.
Apple for live...probably, Windows ...not yet.

I see Windows still carries a stigma for whatever reason but at 2 different shows over the last year I've seen Ableton crash during a show on Mac. Last Windows crash I personally experienced was probably close to 20 years ago.

 

[Sascha Franck]

My wife has a pretty old Win10 box with all sorts of stuff installed - and I can't remember any crashes. There's been some strange things happening every now and then, typically after whatever updates, but all of them could be tackled down more or less easily. And they wouldn't happen on a dedicated audio machine anyway.

 

[Sedaxel]

Did you physically measure it with the Oblique utility (or otherwise)?

I use RTL utility or manually measure the delay between direct and processed waves in Reaper.

In the GE250 case, I made it manually. Had NAM running on a Raspberry Pi (using Pipedal). I used a splitter pedal. One signal to the GE250 (as an audio interface for the Raspberry), processed signal output of the Raspy+GE250 to Reaper in my PC (Audient EVO4). The other signal from the splitter direct to the PC. Then it's easy to measure the delay between those wavs in Reaper. It was between 7 and 7.5 ms.

 

[pipelineaudio]

I think I did my series of articles "bringing the studio to the stage" about how to run your VST setup live. My conclusion was at the time its doable, but quite fiddly and maybe not so reliable. But I figured this was a ticking time bimb for most amp and hardware fx companies who were on life support just waiting until running your plugins live was easy

 

[pipelineaudio]

I highly doubt that. The PC itself, sure. But including a touchscreen? You'd need a convertible laptop as the base for such a setup and the interface wouldn't be included.

Fwiw, I totally agree that there's a lot of pretty shady areas, but at least the product seems to be real already.
I think they really need to release the full specs publically, but in case they're decent, I think this could be pretty interesting.

yup, its the all in one convenience. I've made dozens of super high end VST based rigs for people and the form factor is always pain, this thing looks better than Receptor ever even came close to. Most of mine were made with Lenovo Yogas or similar and just did not feel as solid as this looks.

I'm dying to know anything about this "near zero latency" interface. Every one of mine has been made with an RME Babyface and I wouldn't even call that a "near zero latency".

The other struggle for me has been the foot controller to run all this. Mine have mostly been Behringer FCB1010's but a few made with Ground Controls.

The Helix foot control spoiled us, I would call two way communication with the pedalboard almost a requirement now. I want to see the tuner on there, I want scribble strips. How will we handle that?

Regardless, I am very excited for this thing!

 

[pipelineaudio]

Regarding audio interface, I seriously think that a simple and cheap Zoom U22 works perfectly fine both in latency and stability regards. And if you want to go for more quality/money... just a good MS Surface and a good interface (the Audient EVO4 works great for 110€... no need to go cracy pricewise) would be a safer and future proof platform for a PC based rig.

Meh.

Audient uses the same TheSycon drivers as pretty much everyone else aside from RME. The Zoom might actually be faster. It was last Round Trip Latency Roundup update.

 

[pipelineaudio]

It looks cool & all but I would not trust a product running Windows 11 for my live rig. At least not in this form factor. I give my 5700X a good run for its money to keep up with my jamming preset / chain at low latency and that's on a proper desktop.
Apple for live...probably, Windows ...not yet.

Windows is going to have lower latency all else equal...Not by much, but its measurable. I wouldn't trust apple's paranoia not to completely lock me out in a live situation, though the other edge of that sword is potentially not having something weird getting inserted in the first place

 

[pipelineaudio]

but most VSTs are not optimized for gapless preset/scene usage either.

Between things like Gig Performer, REAPER Live Pedalboard Project, SWS Configs and LBX Stripper, gapless switching (or crossfaded) well and I mean WAY beyond anything available in the hardware world has already been there since around 2016 and it only gets better as more CPU power is added.

 

[Lysander]

Not really. My EVO4 runs under 6 ms, and I´ve seen it 70€ used several times. New it costs little above 100€.

+1. I really like Behringer's UMC202HD, which is regularly found online for a ridiculous ~$90 USD, and i can easily get 4-5ms with a 8 sample buffer size.

 

[pipelineaudio]

Alright, while I agree on the rest of your post, switching is all up to the way the host handles things. And Gig Performer should be able to handle gapless switching just fine (possibly at the expense of reducing CPU power per patch/scene, kinda like the Helix does it). So these things are up to your host

To be clear, even the crappiest Celeron is miles beyond the most powerful hardware DSPs out there in use in any modeller (with some caveats that at certainly latencies, the DSP could have some advantages). I would be surprised if even the crappiest celeron couldn't run 20 instances of Helix Native, so do all the gapless switching you'd like and don;t worry about the CPU so much compared to the hardware versions

 

[Sedaxel]

Audient uses the same TheSycon drivers as pretty much everyone else aside from RME. The Zoom might actually be faster. It was last Round Trip Latency Roundup update.

I don't remember my Zoom number, actually. I just know it was there in the 6 ms ballpark. Pretty good for the price. I'm not talking about the UAC, but the U44... Just in case.

You seem to know a lot about latency and ASIO. Is the driver the only important thing in RTL? Doesn't converters quality (and whatnot) have to do something too?

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

I don't find too many VSTs to be optimized for touch operation on a 10-inch screen, personally.

Yeah, it doesn't matter how "optimized" the hardware is...at the end of the day, the plugin makers are not "optimizing" their UI for this kind of application so you're still screwed.