Line 6 Helix Stadium Talk

[[Nathan]]

I think it great to strive for that. Is it possible? I don't know. Roll the tubes on your amp.. it sounds different... change brand of tubes.. old tubes/new/bias... its different.. incoming power to the head 110vac, 118vac, 120vac, starve it in the same cicuit as everyone else fiighting on stage its different... Its humid wet speaker/new speaker/old... dry as a bone... an amp cant even be itself day to day.

The goal of the capture is to sound like that amp then and there. All of those things are about the life of an amp over time.

 

[Gary_W]

As someone who wants to have the best amp replication possible, accuracy matters
As someone who wants to give people the best captures possible, accuracy matters
Having a good starting point with a highly detailed model for people to push and pull to their hearts content, accuracy matters

Being able to take a capture and tweak it to your liking is a secondary task. Having accurate and high quality models is the foundational starting point which benefits everyone.

For someone who owns the original amp, accuracy matters otherwise they’ll feel like they are compromising when using a modelled / captured version of the amp. Of course, that compromise might be acceptable because you can record at 2am if you feel like it rather than putting a mic in front of a speaker cabinet and upsetting the entire street. But, that aside, making the person who owns the amp feel like the compromise is as small as possible is important.

I think accuracy is also important for people who don’t own the originals; the fact that there’s money in selling profiles / captures tells us this. I already have amp models in the Stadium that make me entirely happy for every conceivable part of the tone spectrum I could want. If ‘tweaking to make something I like’ is the only thing that mattered to me, I’ve already got too much choice!!

I’ll still end up buying some captures….. why? Because I want to know what it sounds and feels like to play through an amp that I will never own. And to do that, I need to have the belief that it’s accurate. Otherwise, why bother buying that capture when I’ve got something that makes me happy already? Of course, you’ll always tweak to your own taste but there must be a ‘need’ to do more than that otherwise profile sellers would make far less money than they do IMO.

I have no way of knowing if any given amp capture is accurate or not as I’ve never heard me playing my guitar in my room with (eg) a Bad Cat. I can read up on the amp architecture and get online opinions which might ground me by saying ‘it’s a bit like a Vox but also not’. But that’s all I have to go on without a direct comparison. So I have to have faith in the people who make the capture in terms of their ability to dial in an amp at it’s sweet spots and to mic it correctly. But the ability of the capture maker is watered down if the capture device can’t do a good job as well. That is where accuracy comes in for us folks who don’t own 20 amps - we have to believe our capture device / modeller can do the job pretty much perfectly so our endless curiosity can be satisfied by commercial makers who know what they’re doing. If we don’t believe it can do it accurately, we may as well have stuck with the original Pod from 25 years ago as you could still tweak something decent enough to use out of it :)

 

[ian_dissonance]

Bi-monthly reminder that profiling/capturing as a STARTING POINT should be as accurate as possible. If that’s not the goal than why bother with capturing?

 

[BenIfin]

.... and that's why we need Null Tests

 

[EOengineer]

.... and that's why we need Null Tests

 

[[Nathan]]

.... and that's why we need Null Tests

 

[BenIfin]

View attachment 60822

..... hey, at least I didn't mention you know who

 

[EOengineer]

A naked Indian visited me in a dream last night. He told me L6 is going to take all the clone data they’re collecting and build ultra idealized clones and then let you assign them to a proxy focus view where you can morph between 4 clones to mix their DNA.

 

[AlbertA]

A naked Indian visited me in a dream last night. He told me L6 is going to take all the clone data they’re collecting and build ultra idealized clones and then let you assign them to a proxy focus view where you can morph between 4 clones to mix their DNA.

 

[Bosons Tear]

Respectable tone to clone

 

[Sidler72]

Respectable tone to clone

I have his CD that he played this on. He also has a version on there with Glen Hughes singing it. It’s a great album. Bonilla always has great tone.

 

[Digital Igloo]

Does anyone have a link to a proxy NULL test and comparison to the other capture devices yet?

Wouldn't matter, because Proxy utilizes sufficient phase/frequency domain-based processes, where null tests don't really apply. AFAIK, NAM and ToneX are purely time domain-based processes, where null tests can sometimes apply. It's very common for a time domain-based capture method to score higher on one of these null shootouts and yet sound appreciably farther from the source amp than a phase/frequency domain based capture method.

This is always an option...

View attachment 60798

Not for what we're paying to rent Studio 1 at SIR Hollywood, that's for sure.

 

[OneEng]

As someone who wants to have the best amp replication possible, accuracy matters
As someone who wants to give people the best captures possible, accuracy matters
Having a good starting point with a highly detailed model for people to push and pull to their hearts content, accuracy matters

Being able to take a capture and tweak it to your liking is a secondary task. Having accurate and high quality models is the foundational starting point which benefits everyone.

Granted, and no arguement.

I suspect that there are MANY more people who DON'T have the amp to compare the capture to. Their guitar, amp/speaker system will also color the tone for them. For these people, the ability to tweak to something that sounds good is more important than accuracy (as long as we are talking a decent accuracy where the starting point isn't awful).

Really though, there is a philosophical debate to be had. Why have a capture at all if a modeler gives you better results to your ears? Certainly there are more than enough Axe III Fx users out there that would agree with this statement.

I do think that Kemper really had this part down pretty well with their Liquid Profiling update. It made it easier to tweak and get the tone to what your ears said was "great tone". NAM, which is the undisputed capture accuracy king, seems to be the weakest in tweaking .... or modeling after the fact while Kemper seems to be the best.

But .... if all you care about is getting to "your tone" it's entirely possible that modelers are better at it overall since tweaking has been their focus for decades ..... while for capture "tweaking" is an after-thought until recently.

For someone who owns the original amp, accuracy matters otherwise they’ll feel like they are compromising when using a modelled / captured version of the amp. Of course, that compromise might be acceptable because you can record at 2am if you feel like it rather than putting a mic in front of a speaker cabinet and upsetting the entire street. But, that aside, making the person who owns the amp feel like the compromise is as small as possible is important.

I think accuracy is also important for people who don’t own the originals; the fact that there’s money in selling profiles / captures tells us this. I already have amp models in the Stadium that make me entirely happy for every conceivable part of the tone spectrum I could want. If ‘tweaking to make something I like’ is the only thing that mattered to me, I’ve already got too much choice!!

I’ll still end up buying some captures….. why? Because I want to know what it sounds and feels like to play through an amp that I will never own. And to do that, I need to have the belief that it’s accurate. Otherwise, why bother buying that capture when I’ve got something that makes me happy already? Of course, you’ll always tweak to your own taste but there must be a ‘need’ to do more than that otherwise profile sellers would make far less money than they do IMO.

I have no way of knowing if any given amp capture is accurate or not as I’ve never heard me playing my guitar in my room with (eg) a Bad Cat. I can read up on the amp architecture and get online opinions which might ground me by saying ‘it’s a bit like a Vox but also not’. But that’s all I have to go on without a direct comparison. So I have to have faith in the people who make the capture in terms of their ability to dial in an amp at it’s sweet spots and to mic it correctly. But the ability of the capture maker is watered down if the capture device can’t do a good job as well. That is where accuracy comes in for us folks who don’t own 20 amps - we have to believe our capture device / modeller can do the job pretty much perfectly so our endless curiosity can be satisfied by commercial makers who know what they’re doing. If we don’t believe it can do it accurately, we may as well have stuck with the original Pod from 25 years ago as you could still tweak something decent enough to use out of it :)

Completely agree .... except about the Pod .

The Pod didn't actually sound good, and no amount of tweaking could get you to a live sound that was as pleasing as a good tube amp (unless you were only doing clean).

Today's modelers and capture/profilers/cloners, all appear quite capable of creating tube amp live quality in the mix. It's pretty much "pick your poison" to me. Other factors are now becoming the differentiation. Line 6 has obviously figured this out ..... which is why we have Stadium!

Still looking for that first Stadium Null test though. Is there some kind of embargo going on that I am not aware of? LOTS of video's showing A/B/C comparisons with Stadium, tube amp, and others, but not a single NULL test I can find.

I have to admit, my only interest in finding the NULL test data on the Stadium is that I want to make the points I am making here. Once you achieve a certain level of accuracy in a capture device, many other factors and features drive the buying decision.

 

[OneEng]

Wouldn't matter, because Proxy utilizes sufficient phase/frequency domain-based processes, where null tests don't really apply. AFAIK, NAM and ToneX are purely time domain-based processes, where null tests can sometimes apply. It's very common for a time domain-based capture method to score higher on one of these null shootouts and yet sound appreciably farther from the source amp than a phase/frequency domain based capture method.

You are definitely preaching to the choir!

The fact is that there are very few PURE capture devices out there is BECAUSE the desire to tweak the results is so strong. The tweaking is then really the IP that makes the biggest difference. If this weren't true for the majority of players, the original Helix and Fractal devices would have failed completely (and they didn't).

 

[Digital Igloo]

You are definitely preaching to the choir!

The fact is that there are very few PURE capture devices out there is BECAUSE the desire to tweak the results is so strong. The tweaking is then really the IP that makes the biggest difference. If this weren't true for the majority of players, the original Helix and Fractal devices would have failed completely (and they didn't).

I'm sure some people are fully satisfied with profiles/captures/clones, but the ability to tweak something in real time to compensate for a performance environment, other musicians, or THE MIX is so mission critical for so many people's workflow, I can't see modeling ever being fully supplanted. Plus, changing the gain, tonestack, and dynamics of your amp on the fly during a song via expression pedals, footswitches, snapshots... No way would I ever want to sacrifice that utility... Songs are boring as hell when all the sounds remain static.

EDIT: Again, it's synthesizers vs. samplers. Do you want to create and tweak your sounds or choose them from a massive library of files? <why_not_both.jpg>

The Pod didn't actually sound good, and no amount of tweaking could get you to a live sound that was as pleasing as a good tube amp (unless you were only doing clean).

Tell that to the thousands of world-class studios with red beans on their console throughout the late 90s/early 00s. POD was used on countless records; so many engineers have admitted to reamping guitar and bass tracks through POD/Bass POD, sometimes even without the artist knowing. AmpFarm and EchoFarm too.

 

[dean701]

The pod not sounding good is laughable. In my college days, tons of bar bands including mine were using bean 2.0 as a front end into clean amps. With the floor board it was portable and good enough for a bunch of drunks

 

[ejecta]

The pod not sounding good is laughable. In my college days, tons of bar bands including mine were using bean 2.0 as a front end into clean amps. With the floor board it was portable and good enough for a bunch of drunks

Yeah the “beans” and Amp Farm was used on many albums we love. I think in our community, especially on forums, we get to into minutia in tone that’s probably irrelevant. Also I think we have ideas like, if it’s newer digital tech it has to be better when it comes to modeling but in a mix that stuff probably really doesn’t matter either. I know I’m guilty.

 

[Bosons Tear]

Yeah the “beans” and POD Farm was used on many albums we love. I think in our community, especially on forums, we get to into minutia in tone that’s probably irrelevant. Also have ideas like, if it’s near it’s better, when it comes to modeling that in a mix that stuff probably really doesn’t matter there either. I know I’m guilty.

I think its relevant, but if my head gets to far up my gear, I've probably lost sight.. of the bigger picture.

 

[ejecta]

I think its relevant, but if my head gets to far up my gear I've probably lost sight.. of the bigger picture.

I agree and let me clarify that I think it can be relevant but not as relevant as we may make it out to be. IMHO I think it gets way more relevant when compared to properly mic’d real amps and cabs.

 

[dean701]

This is the ongoing debate. If you just want a good guitar sound, tons of products are on offer. Rik Emmett picks a Podgo because it meets his needs. People who want an exact and accurate replica of their amps have more specific needs and are going to meet us here, in the twilight zone.