Line 6 Helix Stadium Pre-Launch Discussion

Without question the UI is Fractals biggest weakness and if they continue to ignore it I believe it will hurt them in the long run. I don't see them ever competing with Line 6 for UI and I don't think they need to. But they do need something more competitive again. Nevertheless, as I said before I can't stop feeling deja vu from with the last Helix release. Seems both companies are in similar places to each other, just ten years further down the road.

Say more on feeling deja vu with the 2015 release of Helix Floor?

Cabs are different. Focus View, Favorites and folders make it more easy than ever to dial in sounds and have everything instantly recallable. Factory presets have notes, snapshots and a sample clip to demystify them instead of an obscure title and one setting with no context whatsoever. Way more amp tones and effects are available from the comparatively meager selection Helix had at launch.

Showcase and Proxy will be enabled not too long after launch. Like....how are they similar?
 
Where did he say that? And yes I do, more than you care to know.
The power supply in a tube amp isn't a fixed voltage source. It sags, recovers, and modulates in response to your playing; and also your environment. For example in the UK, the mains voltage is 230volts, but we quite often will get more. I've been in my amp techs workshop where he's measured 249 before. That is quite a difference! It varies throughout the day.

Now given that, we know that an amps power supply is not a fixed voltage in the real world. This means an accurate model of it would not be a fixed floating point source either. Rather, you'd model the sag and voltage and other characteristics. DSP guys already know this, which is why amp modelling has come so far in the last 15 or so years. They've built systems to capture these behaviours.

Now. In a DSP system where resources are finite, you have to manage your processing, optimize code, and perhaps even make compromises. For example, instead of running a per-sample tanh function, which can get expensive, you can instead have a look-up table that you index instead. This is far less costly.

You may also run internal oversampling only where it matters. You may also share or reuse state variables between blocks, so that models are interactive without burning CPU.

But if you have an engine and DSP platform where you have more resources to work with, you can go further. You can handle sample-accurate communication, which is exactly what Eric means when he says:
so we can sample accurately capture the interaction between signal and power supply.

Whether it is between the signal and power supply, or the amp and cab block, is kind of irrelevant to my overarching point.

My overarching point is that sample-accurate is a term in DSP that has a specific implication. It isn't just a buzzword, it has a specific meaning:that data is exchanged and processed on a per-sample basis, not in blocks. In other words, there's no buffer-level latency between one part of the model or another.

That's a massive deal for accuracy. It removes the coarsening effect of block-based updates, where interactions only sync every n samples.

With sample accurate processing, you get tight, real-time feedback loops that make the model feel and response more like actual hardware.

My hunch is that Fractal have been doing this for years already, and that Helix probably wasn't. Until soon ;)
 
I imagine that the Boss GT-1000 would strongly disagree.

I use one (not the amp modeling, mind you - I'm not completely out of taste yet) and latency is amazing. But according to the FAS Wiki, the Axe FX III is now down to 2ms, amp block (which adds a bit) included. Using the loop might maybe add another 1.5ms. 3.5ms in total is quite nice.

I'm still wondering (even with their amp modeling being sub-par) how Boss manages to keep things below 1ms, though. Even weirder that the GX-100 goes as low, even if it's running at 48kHz (the GT-1000 is running at 96kHz internally, from all I know).
 
Say more on feeling deja vu with the 2015 release of Helix Floor?

Cabs are different. Focus View, Favorites and folders make it more easy than ever to dial in sounds and have everything instantly recallable. Factory presets have notes, snapshots and a sample clip to demystify them instead of an obscure title and one setting with no context whatsoever. Way more amp tones and effects are available from the comparatively meager selection Helix had at launch.

Showcase and Proxy will be enabled not too long after launch. Like....how are they similar?
When the original Helix was released its UI was a revelation. Large color screen, touch sensitive switches, scribble strips, etc. Fractal was still using grayscale screens and a UI straight out of the 90's. Fractal had then and still has a much larger library of amps and effects. I don't remember exactly when Fractal introduced quality of life improvements like scenes and channels, but I feel at least scenes existed before Helix and that was a big improvement eventually copied by Line 6. Anyhow, I believe both have advanced on many fronts since 2015. I believe the III was released around 2018 with color screen, greatly improved UI, next gen modeling, etc. And during its life channels were perfected, new cab block introduced, along with many effect, amp, and other improvements.

IMO both have seen many advancements along the way and to me it feels a little like deja vu. Maybe not exactly the same, but similar in some ways. YMMV
 
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The correct reaction to most of his posts should be :knit
Or
girl crying GIF
 
While I do have a Stadium XL on preorder, couldn't pass up 20% off, whether I keep it will largely come down to overall sound and feel quality. The UI looks like a nice refinement of the original Helix and the modeling improvements sound promising. But much of the Stadium is carried over from the original Helix good and bad. So while I would love a unit with a much better UI, I'm not sure I will be willing to give up Fractals massive high quality amp and effects library. Honestly I feel a little bit of deja vu from 10 years ago. Both companies have moved forward a lot, but they both still seem to have the same strengths and weaknesses. Not sure where I will end up this time round, but looking forward to giving the XL a go.

Given the wording of your posts and the pre-suppositions you are making ..... I'll go out on a limb and say (a) you'll not proceed with your pre-order or (b) try it and it will confirm what you already think now and return it within the return period or sell and get your $$ back given your %20 price discount.

Your comments "..... but much of the Stadium is carried over from the original Helix good and bad ..... " and "..... both companies have moved forward a lot, but they both still seem to have the same strengths and weaknesses ..... " tells me your mind is already made up ... in short ... no matter how good the Agoura Modeling is and no matter how quickly L6 "Agoura'ize" the whole Amp line, they will always be playing catchup to Fractal.

I cant come to any other conclusion from all the advance pre-conditions and pre-disclaimers you are making .... and that's all totally %1000 fine of course ..... its your $$ ...... I think we both know where you're going to end up and that your mind is already made up :) ... and the %20 discount gives you the insurance-cover-protection to dip your toe in the water you already know you really don't want to swim in :)
 
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When the original Helix was released its UI was a revelation. Large color screen, touch sensitive switches, scribble strips, etc. Fractal was still using grayscale screens and a UI straight out of the 90's. Fractal had then and still has a much larger library of amps and effects. I don't remember exactly when Fractal introduced quality of life improvements like scenes and channels, but I feel at lease scenes existed before Helix and that was a big improvement eventually copied by Line 6. Anyhow, I believe both have advanced on many fronts since 2015. I believe the III was released around 2018 with color screen, greatly improved UI, next gen modeling, etc. And during its life channels were perfected, new cab block introduced, along with many effect, amp, and other improvements.

IMO both have seen many advancements along the way and to me it feels a little like deja vu. Maybe not exactly the same, but similar in some ways. YMMV

Gotcha. If you're using 2015 as the comparison starting point, then your POV makes sense to me.

I'm comparing the progress of the start of each of the current generations - Helix in 2015 and Axe-FX III in 2018. Yes, many improvements happened with the current Fractal gen over its life span, but almost all of them were either new content or tweaks to existing content. The workflow is nigh identical. Yes, they added Dynacabs and Helix redid their cabs - pretty much a wash.

I absolutely agree that Helix copied Scenes (but gave them a bit more granularity with Snapshots. I'd love it if they had a similar take on Channels). But they've done a lot more QoL/UX/usability stuff even though Helix started from such a great point at launch.

Stuff like: User model defaults/favorites (essentially a non-exportable version of Fractal's block library but you can access it on the hardware), Command Center, Hot Keys, Pedal Edit mode, pedal position indicators, etc.

Obviously, Stadium is kicking all of that into overdrive while adding in all-new amp modeling engine while also adding a clone/capture engine to satisfy both virtual amp collectors and people who have particular rigs they own and need to take everywhere (like Pete Thorn is doing now with his Quad Cortex on the Five for Fighting tour).
 
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Given the wording of your posts and the pre-suppositions you are making ..... I'll go out on a limb and say (a) you'll not proceed with your pre-order or (b) try it and it will confirm what you already think now and return it within the return period or sell and get your $$ back given your %20 price discount.

Your comments "..... but much of the Stadium is carried over from the original Helix good and bad ..... " and "..... both companies have moved forward a lot, but they both still seem to have the same strengths and weaknesses ..... " tells me your mind is already made up ... in short ... no matter how good the Agoura Modeling is and no matter how quickly L6 "Agoura'ize" the whole Amp line, they will always be playing catchup to Fractal.

I cant come to any other conclusion from all the advance pre-conditions and pre-disclaimers you are making .... and that's all totally %1000 fine of course ..... its your $$ ...... I think we both know where you're going to end up and that your mind is already made up :) ... and the %20 discount gives you the insurance-cover-protection to dip your toe in the water you already know you really don't want to swim in :)
Your Fractal Derangement Syndrome is staggeringly annoying.
 
Given the wording of your posts and the pre-suppositions you are making ..... I'll go out on a limb and say (a) you'll not proceed with your pre-order or (b) try it and it will confirm what you already think now and return it within the return period or sell and get your $$ back given your %20 price discount.

Your comments "..... but much of the Stadium is carried over from the original Helix good and bad ..... " and "..... both companies have moved forward a lot, but they both still seem to have the same strengths and weaknesses ..... " tells me your mind is already made up ... in short ... no matter how good the Agoura Modeling is and no matter how quickly L6 "Agoura'ize" the whole Amp line, they will always be playing catchup to Fractal.

I cant come to any other conclusion from all the advance pre-conditions and pre-disclaimers you are making .... and that's all totally %1000 fine of course ..... its your $$ ...... I think we both know where you're going to end up and that your mind is already made up :) ... and the %20 discount gives you the insurance-cover-protection to dip your toe in the water you already know you really don't want to swim it :)
Maybe you're right. There are definitely features and functions on the Fractal platform that I would have a hard time giving up and I do put a lot of value in the overall sound quality and feel I get from a platform. But I did switch to a Helix Floor for about a year and a half a couple of years into its lifespan once Line 6 introduced their version of Scenes and a few other highly requested features. I always liked the unit, but eventually got attracted back into the Fractal environment. So, I'm not sure my path is predetermined ;)
 
Your Fractal Derangement Syndrome is staggeringly annoying.

For real ????

I doubt Cliff and the team have minded the probably over AUS $12,000 I've spent on their gear [new] including my current FM3 - its fucking expensive down here - not to mention the 2nd hand units I've bought and tried - still fucking expensive.

Maybe read what AZG wrote and what my response was - i.m.h.o, he was pretty clearly conveying exactly what he will almost certainly end up doing - I just think there was a lot of "both-side's-ness" - but of course I could be wrong - his $$ his show. Thats all good.

Anyway .... on the bright side .... my "FDS" has at least given you the opportunity to keep your Post Total still keep ticking up. ;)
 
That would be ideal, but Fractal is still certainly ahead in the amount of amps (over 100 unique amps) and tweakability.

Facts, but Line 6 has never tried to compete on volume, and I suspect The commoditization of capturing/profiling is leveling that particular playing field for pretty much every other platform. Hell, it's pretty much life support for the Quad Cortex these days.
 
Maybe you're right. There are definitely features and functions on the Fractal platform that I would have a hard time giving up and I do put a lot of value in the overall sound quality and feel I get from a platform. But I did switch to a Helix Floor for about a year and a half a couple of years into its lifespan once Line 6 introduced their version of Scenes and a few other highly requested features. I always liked the unit, but eventually got attracted back into the Fractal environment. So, I'm not sure my path is predetermined ;)

Like I said - I could well be / may well be definelty wrong .... either way, enjoy :)
 
Maybe read what AZG wrote and what my response was - i.m.h.o, he was pretty clearly conveying exactly what he will almost certainly end up doing - I just think the "both-side's-ness" was disingenuous - but of course I could be wrong - his $$ his show. Thats all good.
In reality, the biggest reason I may not keep the Stadium at this time is there are too many features that will not be available at launch. The QC left a bad taste in my mouth with an endless list of not available at launch items that never showed or took forever and years to get added. Granted, Line 6 has a MUCH better track record so I believe missing items will be released as promised in a more timely manor. But still I'm betting it will be a year or two before the vision is more fully fleshed out.
 
In reality, the biggest reason I may not keep the Stadium at this time is there are too many features that will not be available at launch. The QC left a bad taste in my mouth with an endless list of not available at launch items that never showed or took forever and years to get added. Granted, Line 6 has a MUCH better track record so I believe missing items will be released as promised in a more timely manor. But still I'm betting it will be a year or two before the vision is more fully fleshed out.

Totally understandable and reasonable.

On that front, I appreciate how DI has been tamping down expectations on a number of fronts to get ahead of people with QC PTSD rather than mindlessly stoking hype.
 
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