Line 6 Helix Stadium Pre-Launch Discussion

[ian_dissonance]

IR’s through an "FRFR" do not sound like a modeler into a good power amp and real cab. There are a lot of reasons for it, but that’s something future development could address.

The reason IRs don’t sound like that is because they’re not supposed to, lol. The DO sound like what they’re supposed to - a cab mic’d up in another room while you listen through a speaker. Even if you COULD emulate the sound of a 4x12 directly, you’d still have to find a way to move the same amount air to “feel” like it.

 

[Mooselake]

... Same. All the real "damn that's nice" moments for me in Line6's 10th anniversary presentation were things like Focus view, Showcase, per-output global EQs etc. Hopefully we'll get to actually hear the device before launch and be wowed by Agora modeling and any improvements they might've done to existing fx.

I sort of had the opposite reaction. I mean, yeah, most those ease of use/productivity things were "hey, that's cool" moments but what really caught my attention was what was said but not said about Agoura. Line 6 is usually pretty understated about things which makes me think there's some there there. I'll be happy to hear some demos when they start to come out, but I think it's already been pretty well demonstrated that most of the modelers can create a sound that when recorded and played back is extremely convincing. So I'm mostly interested in the player experience. A few of the people at the anniversary who got a chance to try one out had positive comments on that aspect, but of course their experience may not be mine, and human nature is generally biased towards not crapping on people that have showed you kindness.

 

[Dez]

The Fireball is awesome and the 5150iii red is

Just tried the 5150iii

 

[TheTrueZoltan!]

The Fireball is awesome and the 5150iii red is

Add the Invective to the list.

 

[GTR37]

I sort of had the opposite reaction. I mean, yeah, most those ease of use/productivity things were "hey, that's cool" moments but what really caught my attention was what was said but not said about Agoura. Line 6 is usually pretty understated about things which makes me think there's some there there. I'll be happy to hear some demos when they start to come out, but I think it's already been pretty well demonstrated that most of the modelers can create a sound that when recorded and played back is extremely convincing. So I'm mostly interested in the player experience. A few of the people at the anniversary who got a chance to try one out had positive comments on that aspect, but of course their experience may not be mine, and human nature is generally biased towards not crapping on people that have showed you kindness.

Very true if anything DI is known to be very calm and downplay stuff , so if he is excited cool

 

[molul]

Honestly, I don't think there will be a huge impact on FM9 sales in America, either. The two companies are primarily focused on different segments of the market. Kinda like Friedman versus Marshall.

Just curious: what's Fractal market segment and why wouldn't Helix Stadium be attractive for that segment?

 

[Dez]

Just curious: what's Fractal market segment and why wouldn't Helix Stadium be attractive for that segment?

So many professional bands that have used Fractal since it was a clear top dog (it still is) - and people that have spent over 2k for a Fractal and have learned how to get along with it and aren't going to jump to the Helix unless it's been vetted and a clear winner in the arms race.

 

[Lysander]

Just curious: what's Fractal market segment and why wouldn't Helix Stadium be attractive for that segment?

Like, the pros, dude!

Seriously though ... pros. Fractal always aimed more at studio / arena bands customers, which don't mind needing a PhD to properly program a device from the front panel.

I'm really looking forward to see what happens if (when?) L6 releases a Helix Stadium Rack. Then again, we might have the AxeFX IV Gameboy Edition out by then.

 

[molul]

Like, the pros, dude!

Seriously though ... pros. Fractal always aimed more at studio / arena bands customers, which don't mind needing a PhD to properly program a device from the front panel.

It will be interesting to see what happens if (when?) L6 releases a Helix Stadium Rack.

I thought it was the pros, yep, but wanted to know the full answer before giving my opinion :)

I don't know if Line6 is "powering" many bands, but for instance I saw Smashing Pumpkins using Helix Racks a few years ago (although mostly for effects, because Billy won't allow digital amps on stage xD).

On the other hand, I'd say arena bands usually have a tech guy who makes the programming for them, unless the musicians are nerdy enough. And if they are, I'm sure they would appreciate a way friendlier UI.

So again, I don't see why the Stadium wouldn't be embraced by that market if emulation quality ended up being identical. And there's also profiling, which Fractal still doesn't have.

The only remaining reason seems to be "not having to learn another interface", but how long will that happen? They will eventually have to learn a new interface when a new Fractal device is released (at least I hope they don't do like Kemper and take UX very seriously, for their own good), and Stadium's seems quite joyful to learn, kind of like when you switch from Pro Tools to Studio One xD

 

[Lysander]

So again, I don't see why the Stadium wouldn't be embraced by that market if emulation quality ended up being identical.

Note that there's still stuff Fractal does Helix (and most of the competition) simply cannot do. Fractal is still second to none when it comes to routing flexibilty, automation, programmability, etc. The fact that it has top-tier modelling and arguably the best original effects in the business is just the cherry on top.

This comes at a learning curve and UX cost, thou.

 

[molul]

Note that there's still stuff Fractal does Helix (and most of the competition) simply cannot do. Fractal is still second to none when it comes to routing flexibilty, automation, programmability, etc. The fact that it has top-tier modelling and arguably the best original effects in the business is just the cherry on top.

This comes at a learning curve and UX cost, thou.

I know nothing about those features in Fractal, but if they are not covered by what we've seen for the Stadium, they must be a huge deal :-O In that case, I would understand that Stadium didn't succeed.

 

[Lysander]

I know nothing about those features in Fractal, but if they are not covered by what we've seen for the Stadium, they must be a huge deal :-O

You and most people i reckon, because most of us have no need for those It's not like the Line 6s, NDSPs and Boss'es of the world couldn't match these features from Fractal; is just they choose not to.

 

[laxu]

I'm really looking forward to see what happens if (when?) L6 releases a Helix Stadium Rack. Then again, we might have the AxeFX IV Gameboy Edition out by then.

 

[Dez]

I thought it was the pros, yep, but wanted to know the full answer before giving my opinion :)

I don't know if Line6 is "powering" many bands, but for instance I saw Smashing Pumpkins using Helix Racks a few years ago (although mostly for effects, because Billy won't allow digital amps on stage xD).

On the other hand, I'd say arena bands usually have a tech guy who makes the programming for them, unless the musicians are nerdy enough. And if they are, I'm sure they would appreciate a way friendlier UI.

So again, I don't see why the Stadium wouldn't be embraced by that market if emulation quality ended up being identical. And there's also profiling, which Fractal still doesn't have.

The only remaining reason seems to be "not having to learn another interface", but how long will that happen? They will eventually have to learn a new interface when a new Fractal device is released (at least I hope they don't do like Kemper and take UX very seriously, for their own good), and Stadium's seems quite joyful to learn, kind of like when you switch from Pro Tools to Studio One xD

The Dear Hunter guitarist moved from a pedalboard to just a Helix and his Mark V 25.

 

[Chocol8]

The reason IRs don’t sound like that is because they’re not supposed to, lol. The DO sound like what they’re supposed to - a cab mic’d up in another room while you listen through a speaker. Even if you COULD emulate the sound of a 4x12 directly, you’d still have to find a way to move the same amount air to “feel” like it.

That’s an excuse and not a good one. Who the heck decided what IR’s are “supposed to” sound like? The technology isn’t supposed to sound like anything. Also, they don’t sound exactly like close mic’ed cabs either. They have partial data.

There is no reason speaker emulation shouldn’t be able to sound like a cab AND like a close mic’ed cab depending on user preference. Current solutions mostly fail short of both. There is more room for improvement here than with tube pre-amp modeling.

 

[dk_ace]

It's not about things possibly making a difference. But as has been said, we're in the land of diminishing returns in many aspects already. Which was pretty different some years back.

That was said years ago. It was wrong then, and it’s wrong now. Current modeling is not 100% of the real thing of the real amps. We’ll be at diminishing returns when the best of the best say they can’t hear or feel a difference. We are not there today.

People said that Helix was close enough. People said that their newer models hold up well to the axe3. That didn’t stop them from making a new modeling engine and by the accounts so far it is noticeably better.

You are happy with the current tech, that’s great. It won’t stop the people whose job it is to make the modeling better from making the modeling better.

D

 

[Lysander]

That’s an excuse and not a good one. Who the heck decided what IR’s are “supposed to” sound like? The technology isn’t supposed to sound like anything. Also, they don’t sound exactly like close mic’ed cabs either. They have partial data.

Evergreen, but DIs article on this subject explains it perfectly IMHO: https://blog.line6.com/2023/09/15/e...-sound-is-determined-by-your-playback-system/

A well recorder IR will sound indistinguishable from a mic-ed cabinet, and nothing more.

 

[molul]

Line6 artists page (plenty of pros there!):

https://line6.com/artists/

Not sure how many will use Helix, though.

 

[Chocol8]

Diminishing returns still implies there is room for improvement, just that it will take more to get smaller increments. I think that is accurate and will become more so. It will thin the field at the high end and maybe broaden it at the low end.

There is also the related but separate issue of market differentiation. Years ago Fractal modeling clearly sounded closer to real amps. It was a reason to pay more and put up with the user interface. Going forward, they are going to have a harder and harder time selling on just tones, especially amp tones, but I expect the competition will catch up in effects eventually as well.

That leaves things like flexibility, features, power, usability, reliability/robustness, and price as areas companies will compete on. Fractal will still have a pretty good opportunity in this next generation of products. I think Kemper and QC are going to have to change tactics and drop prices, or drop out. I have no idea what Fender’s plans are, but they do have resources to try to stay in the race, but I am not sure it will be worth trying to compete with Stadium and Axe IV directly.

Looking another 10 years down the road, Fractal will have to make a major leap in user interface and user experience because the other gaps are likely to close. Cliff may just retire by then anyway.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

There is no reason speaker emulation shouldn’t be able to sound like a cab AND like a close mic’ed cab depending on user preference. Current solutions mostly fail short of both. There is more room for improvement here than with tube pre-amp modeling.

The laws of physics say otherwise. The sound of a cabinet is more than just the speaker, and to play an IR back will require the use of another, usually unknown speaker on top of that.

The way sound radiates out of its enclosure is going to vary loads based on construction and where it’s positioned, let alone plenty of other smaller factors. I’d say there’s still a good bit of room to improve the modelling of the electrical side of things though. Poweramp modelling is still the area that separates the wheat from the chuff.