Line 6 Helix Stadium Pre-Launch Discussion

[Lysander]

People said we were at the tail end of diminishing returns curve when the axe 2 came out. They were pretty wrong….

I don't want to derail (any more ) this thread, but search a couple AxeFX II vs AxeFX III shootouts in the YouTubez. I think you'll be surprised.

 

[molul]

Meanwhile, in Europe...​

Kinda true in Spain XD Any guitarist interested in modelers that I've known, knows Fractal, but no one has a Fractal device as it's perceived as a "much more expensive, only for top professional players".

And it might be different in the top professional world, but nowadays most Spanish indie/alt-rock bands either use a bunch of pedals, a Kemper Stage, or a Helix Floor/LT.

Now that Stadium Floor will be priced very close to FM9 Turbo, I wonder if the tide might change. Although honestly, I just watched a video about how to make a preset in FM9, and ok, it might sound better than Helix and maybe than Helix Stadium, but I would totally choose Stadium Floor XL over FM9 just for preset editing today. I would even choose OG Helix LT over FM9 XD

 

[laxu]

Yeah, the state of digital guitar stuff is:

Doing fine:
Fractal - Leadership position on many fronts well known

Fractal's EU pricing is so high that I think Stadium will eat a lot of their lunch in the high end, likely for several hundred euros less. Their next gen product has to be really good for usability IMO. Soundwise they are great as is.

Hurting:
NDSP - The unmet expectations have not been countered by any big splash - Nano Cortex was a nice bump, but IMO, it ultimately just takes possible QC customers away

I think they might be doing just fine. QC still tops Thomann's best sellers lists and Nano Cortex is fairly high in its category too. They still have a form factor advantage over Stadium. They also just hired some former TC Electronic devs and established a new office in Denmark.

Kemper - Still has some die hards, but sad trombone Mk2 announcement after a very long time without a refresh

I think the diehards will keep them going for a few years, but I just don't see a real future without releasing a new product. They might be stuck with a product that is not easy to port to a different architecture, and making a brand new architecture (not to mention UI) would take a lot of time.

Headrush - I haven't seen anyone care in months at least

They might be the one that still sells decently just due to being in stores and cheaper. The weird underdog ignored by enthusiasts but embraced by masses?

Tonex - not for me, but still has a robust following

Someone making a truly better box is going to eat their lunch. Being first to market to establish the Tonex brand and a large library of captures are their advantages atm, but that's about it. The Tonex One was a great move to get to the bottom of the barrel price point before anyone else.

 

[bucephalus]

Still, US$1800 should be ~€1500, right in line with historic prices for L6 flagships

Don't you normally find that whatever the dollar price is for something from US based companies, the £ or euro price is often the same, certainly for RRP.

 

[TheTrueZoltan!]

No, not many. It's just horsepower and sound. Seriously, over here, FAS is completely irrelevant for "the market". Pretty much noone plays their stuff, at least compared to all the others. It's a super-niche product. They could change that any day but apparently decided not to. [...]

True. I would never have bought an Axe-Fx III at full price, it's simply far too expensive here in Europe. I was just lucky enough to discover a good second-hand offer of an Mk I unit at a fair price. But the high prices of Fractal products here naturally mean that relatively few people buy them without hesitation. The prices of Line 6, Neural DSP and Kemper are simply much more competitive in this regard.

 

[Sascha Franck]

And it might be different in the top professional world, but nowadays most Spanish indie/alt-rock bands either use a bunch of pedals, a Kemper Stage, or a Helix Floor/LT.

Exactly the same here. And it's not only about the price IMO. Their entire way of distributing things is defenitely getting in the way of them being more popular.
In case the main unit in my rig is faulty, I don't want to join a waiting list to get it replaced. And even if their service seems to be decent, in case I'm using a Helix, Kemper or what have you, it'd take me 2 days to get a replacement pretty much anywhere in the western world. And in case you're a Kemper user and doing oversea gigs, all you need to grab is a USB stick because rental devices are available literally anywhere (been playing in Mumbai 2 years back and the rental service told me they had a Kemper - just that it wasn't for me). These are very clear advantages of a wider distribution network.

 

[Lysander]

Don't you normally find that whatever the dollar price is for something from US based companies, the £ or euro price is often the same, certainly for RRP.

Depends, really. Sometimes gear is priced at the conversion rate - a brand new HX One, for example, is actually slightly cheaper in Euro (Thomann) than the conversion rate for USD (Sweetwater).

 

[Sascha Franck]

EU pricing often drives me mad. They're trying to tell you it's shipping, customs, taxes and what not. As if a unit made in China wouldn't have to be shipped to the USA. Or as if there were no customs. In the end, all they're doing is shafting their customers.

 

[Orvillain]

- Import cost differences
- VAT cost differences
- Storage cost differences
- Shipping cost differences
- Regional policy differences
- Regulatory compliance cost differences
- Currency fluctuations
- Distributor monopolistic practices
- Regional price discrimination practices
- Regulations and restrictions around MAP and resale policies
- Consumer protection overheads
- Higher labour costs
- Liability and insurance requirements
- Bureaucracy

When you see a tech product priced noticeably higher in Europe or the UK than in the USA, it is not one single factor at play. Rather it is a stack of incremental costs and strategic decisions that cause the price differential.

A large factor is VAT. Another large factor is how draconian, over-reaching, and anti-business Europe is.

In the UK you can setup a LTD business just by paying £30 or so to register your company.

Try doing that in Europe. I've got friends who say it took them 3 months to register a business in France. I met a guy recently (doing some contract work for him!) who had a similar story for Spain and Germany.

The UK isn't quite as bad in that respect, but there are negative things about the UK in relation to supporting businesses - particularly small/medium enterprises.

So when Europeans pay 15–30% more for the same tech product, it’s not because companies are trying to “rip people off.” It’s because the cost of doing business is fundamentally higher due to taxes, regulation, compliance, distribution complexity, and strategic pricing behavior.

None of this is conjecture. It’s textbook microeconomics.

Believing otherwise isn’t just naïve, it’s economically illiterate.

 

[laxu]

EU pricing often drives me mad. They're trying to tell you it's shipping, customs, taxes and what not. As if a unit made in China wouldn't have to be shipped to the USA. Or as if there were no customs. In the end, all they're doing is shafting their customers.

I've seen it also justified by an extra year of warranty - which is mandated by EU, and offered by the competition too. Plus how often does a Fractal break anyway that you'd care about the extra warranty?

This is what the EU pricing looks like.

I picked the QC for reference because labor in Finland is expensive compared to assembling the entire unit in China. NDSP's factory is literally right in the middle of Helsinki, so not a cheap location in the boonies either. So I think Fractal vs NDSP would be at least reasonably comparable as companies.

Helix Floor is just an extra data point.

Thomann vs G66 pricing used.
For VAT price, I used Finnish VAT 25.5%
US prices are before tax.

Product	Price € incl VAT	Price € without VAT	US price converted to €	US Price $
Fractal FM9 Mk II Turbo	2420	1928	1556	1800
Neural DSP Quad Cortex	1599	1274	1555	1799
Line6 Helix Floor	1222	973	1124	1300

Very different pricing strategies here.

• NDSP and Line6 are doing roughly "US price before tax = EU incl VAT price". So they sell the unit a bit cheaper in the EU but for the end user the cost seems similar to their US brethren.
• G66 price for Fractal is "take the US retail price in € and add 372 € up top".

"Well, G66 needs to get paid too!" but so does Thomann. Both are resellers/distributors that take their cut. Same for Sweetwater. Fractal in the US is the only one selling direct to US customers.

If Fractal used the NDSP/Line6 pricing strategy, FM9 would be closer to 2000 € w/ VAT. IMO that would be more in line for "Fractal premium".

Instead I have a hard time justifying paying an extra 821 € over a QC. I'm not saying this as a "I think QC is better than Fractal" point. I'm saying it as "Fractal is not 821 € / 51% better".

Fractal's UK pricing seems to be only about the VAT difference between EU vs UK.

 

[Deleted member 490]

Fractal in the US is the only one selling direct to US customers.

Maybe that's where the price difference mainly comes from? Cuz, unlike for the other two companies, in the US there are no resellers/distributors that need to take their cut.
Also, among those companies Fractal is the only one "made in USA" afaik, that must make a difference too in terms of costs. Yes I know it's mainly made in China but all products (including those going to EU) are shipped to Fractal's HQ first for QC and firmware installation. Maybe they could cut EU prices a bit by shipping them directly from China to G66?

 

[laxu]

Maybe that's where the price difference mainly comes from? Cuz, unlike for the other two companies, in the US there are no resellers/distributors that need to take their cut.
Also, among those companies Fractal is the only one "made in USA" afaik, that must make a difference too in terms of costs. Yes I know it's mainly made in China but all products (including those gooing to EU) are shipped to Fractal's HQ first for QC and firmware installation. Maybe they could cut EU prices a bit by shipping them directly from China to G66?

They'd have to have assembly done by G66 in that case, which might not be in their capability.

I brought up NDSP because their manufacturing is similar. Parts made in China, assembled, fw installed and tested in Finland, shipped all over the world. The only difference is the lack of direct sales.

 

[Deleted member 490]

which might not be in their capability.

Well, afaik they perform repairs in house, so maybe that's not the reason...

I brought up NDSP because their manufacturing is similar. Parts made in China, assembled, fw installed and tested in Finland, shipped all over the world.

But still going thru distributors both in US and EU.

 

[Karl Houseknecht]

I mean, there's no release date for that, but if you're a Fractal die-hard user, and you know something potentially mind-blowing is on the works, you might probably wait a bit before putting your money on another company device.

There is no next gen Fractal device coming anytime soon. Matt at Fractal was quick to walk those comments back and say that the current gen would be sold for the foreseeable future.

It’s a bold strategy to mention the next gen with the intent to keep customers from jumping ship because you can end up sabotaging sales of your current product line. Why buy an FM9 or III if you believe they’re soon going to be Game Boy levels of processors by comparison?

 

[TSJMajesty]

no resellers/distributors that need to take their cut.

That does not automatically mean their price will be higher than the price as sold direct-to-consumer. On the contrary, many companies offer volume discounts to the distributors, greater than their profit, partly due to the fact that the risk for selling those units now rests with those distributors.

As an example, I was able to buy one of my EBMM guitars for almost 20% less than one I purchased directly from the factory. I know part of the reason was the directly-purchased guitar was a one-off, so they weren't willing to give any sort of discount, but that didn't account for all of it.

If you were selling direct, one at a time, wouldn't you be willing to offer a substantial discount to a reseller, if they placed an order for 100 units, for example? Economy-of-scale also comes into play.

 

[bucephalus]

I don't get the hate for the name.

Next time the wife or another family members asks how my guitar playing is coming along I will reply: "Great! I will be playing stadiums soon!"

(Apologies if the joke has been made before. This hype train is too fast for me...)

Oh man, that Chas was such a dick to Morph.

 

[dk_ace]

I don't want to derail (any more ) this thread, but search a couple AxeFX II vs AxeFX III shootouts in the YouTubez. I think you'll be surprised.

I had the first axe-fx. It was damn good. People said ALL the things they are saying now about how it’s already there, more power won’t matter, can’t improve it much more, etc. They were wrong then and they are wrong now.

The improvements he makes are small and incremental, but cumulative. Give him new hardware and three years of improvements and he’ll beat the current gen in a noticeable way. Same thing for team Helix.

D

 

[laxu]

There is no next gen Fractal device coming anytime soon. Matt at Fractal was quick to walk those comments back and say that the current gen would be sold for the foreseeable future.

It’s a bold strategy to mention the next gen with the intent to keep customers from jumping ship because you can end up sabotaging sales of your current product line. Why buy an FM9 or III if you believe they’re soon going to be Game Boy levels of processors by comparison?

Yeah the "Surprise! Here's a next gen box!" strategy that Fractal and Line6 have used in the past is definitely the way to go...even though there will be some disgruntled "God damn it, I just bought a last gen unit!" users.

I remember when the Axe-Fx III was launched and I had been contemplating selling my Axe-Fx 2 a bit earlier. The price nosedived for a good while after the Axe-Fx 3 launch. That coincidentally was my previous "Fuck this I'll just go back to tube amps" phase because I was so disappointed in the Axe-Fx 3's hardware design being so similar to Axe-Fx 2.

I'm currently in a "Do I really need all these pedals?" phase. Not to replace them with a multifx, but just a "How often am I even turning this on?" thinking. Delays and reverbs are the only things with true staying power on my board.

 

[molul]

I remember people saying Boss GT8's amp simulation sounded like the real thing, although that was proven wrong the moment you tried it xD

Maybe there's still room for improvement, sure, but as I said in another post, it looks like we're in the "PlayStation 4 to 5" transition in modeling.

Improvements in emulation are off course welcome, but at this point I'm way more attracted by things like Showcase, Bluetooth editing, a great UI, a VST companion or great effects than by a 5.2% "realer" emulation. I'm actually 100% happy with HX emulation engine already.

 

[laxu]

I remember people saying Boss GT8's amp simulation sounded like the real thing, although that was proven wrong the moment you tried it xD

Maybe there's still room for improvement, sure, but as I said in another post, it looks like we're in the "PlayStation 4 to 5" transition in modeling.

I think there's a lot of leeway in modeling accuracy depending on what you pipe it through. I loved many of the sounds I was getting from the 1998 Yamaha DG combo I had. A lot of others had nothing but positive things to say about its sound too.

If I put the Hotone Ampero 2 Stomp through a Fryette PS-100 and my favorite guitar cabs, it sounds absolutely kickass whether I use the full amp model or preamp only. I know the Hotone is not all the way there, but it's way more than good enough to be really fun to play.

PS4 to PS5 is actually a pretty big leap. IMO we are in more of a PS5 -> PS5 Pro situation for anything that is not UI/workflow related. Yeah it's better, but by a much smaller margin.

Improvements in emulation are off course welcome, but at this point I'm way more attracted by things like Showcase, Bluetooth editing, a great UI, a VST companion or great effects than by a 5.2% "realer" emulation. I'm actually 100% happy with HX emulation engine already.

Same. All the real "damn that's nice" moments for me in Line6's 10th anniversary presentation were things like Focus view, Showcase, per-output global EQs etc. Hopefully we'll get to actually hear the device before launch and be wowed by Agora modeling and any improvements they might've done to existing fx.