Kemper Profiler MK 2

[OneEng]

In that one thread. If someone wants to talk openly they can start another thread.

It's about keeping things tidy.

I have been posting on forums for decades. Kemper is BY FAR the most authoritarian and limiting of any forum I have ever seen. They permanently ban members for the most minor of infractions. They wield the whole "on-topic" infraction like a whip to the point that people are afraid to say much of anything for fear of being banned.

I am certainly one of the products most ardent supporters and have been for over 10 years. If I feel this way, imagine how someone relatively new on the forum might feel.

Besides, if all they wanted to do is "keep things tidy" they wouldn't be banning people, they would be warning them.

Every forum thread has topic drift ..... because every good conversation ALSO exhibits this trait. By banning "topic drift" you essentially ban practically every decent conversation that has ever been had. Unfortunately, I no longer believe this is a "side effect" of tidiness, I think it is a mechanism of getting rid of conversation they would rather not have.

I am also not the only one that is saying that MK2 is a forced upgrade targeting MK1 users. I suspect anyone with any engineering background has reached the same conclusions I have. Note how those voices are quickly silenced on the Kemper forum.

I think they should just own it. Yea, it is a forced upgrade. They should offer a paid upgrade to the MK1 users to get it IMO. I am guessing this would be a much more profitable path anyway. It would also be more honest than what they are doing now (IMO).

If there is anyone with an engineering or electronics background that can provide me with SOME kind of explanation of how the SAME DSP chip (and likely the entire motherboard) being the same could somehow NOT do the same signal processing, I am totally open to hearing it and having my opinion changed. I simply haven't heard anything remotely close to this yet.

 

[Eagle]

I have been posting on forums for decades. Kemper is BY FAR the most authoritarian and limiting of any forum I have ever seen. They permanently ban members for the most minor of infractions. They wield the whole "on-topic" infraction like a whip to the point that people are afraid to say much of anything for fear of being banned.

I am certainly one of the products most ardent supporters and have been for over 10 years. If I feel this way, imagine how someone relatively new on the forum might feel.

Besides, if all they wanted to do is "keep things tidy" they wouldn't be banning people, they would be warning them.

Every forum thread has topic drift ..... because every good conversation ALSO exhibits this trait. By banning "topic drift" you essentially ban practically every decent conversation that has ever been had. Unfortunately, I no longer believe this is a "side effect" of tidiness, I think it is a mechanism of getting rid of conversation they would rather not have.

I am also not the only one that is saying that MK2 is a forced upgrade targeting MK1 users. I suspect anyone with any engineering background has reached the same conclusions I have. Note how those voices are quickly silenced on the Kemper forum.

I think they should just own it. Yea, it is a forced upgrade. They should offer a paid upgrade to the MK1 users to get it IMO. I am guessing this would be a much more profitable path anyway. It would also be more honest than what they are doing now (IMO).

If there is anyone with an engineering or electronics background that can provide me with SOME kind of explanation of how the SAME DSP chip (and likely the entire motherboard) being the same could somehow NOT do the same signal processing, I am totally open to hearing it and having my opinion changed. I simply haven't heard anything remotely close to this yet.

I think Mk1 will play MK2 stuff basically the same but is prevented from making MK2 profiles. Time will tell because there isn’t even a non beta version 2 software yet.

 

[Jarick]

It's an interesting thought, at what point can you justify charging for additional development on old hardware?

Let's say that V2 profiles could run on V1 hardware and that the profiling limitation is purely a financial decision. If Kemper was up front last summer and said they are developing new V2 profiling and it will be free for people who buy that hardware but would cost say $100-200 for existing hardware owners, would that be more acceptable?

I also think if they would have done the same thing on the Player it would have gone over better as well. And I think it would have made a lot more sense for these to be a global unlock by user instead of by device. Because then you are getting money from used purchases as well.

 

[Eagle]

It's an interesting thought, at what point can you justify charging for additional development on old hardware?

Let's say that V2 profiles could run on V1 hardware and that the profiling limitation is purely a financial decision. If Kemper was up front last summer and said they are developing new V2 profiling and it will be free for people who buy that hardware but would cost say $100-200 for existing hardware owners, would that be more acceptable?

I also think if they would have done the same thing on the Player it would have gone over better as well. And I think it would have made a lot more sense for these to be a global unlock by user instead of by device. Because then you are getting money from used purchases as well.

you can run version 2 profiles on mk1 hardware now with 14 beta. They are claiming at lower res but the DSP is the same on both units .

 

[Enchilada Jones]

"In order to avoid that new PROFILEs 2.0 get accidentally loaded into older OS revisions before OS 13, which might cause compatibility issues, we recommend to store new Rigs created with OS 14.0.0 once again with OS 14.0.1."

14.0.1 just dropped

 

[Chocol8]

I think it is OK to price it however they want and consumers can decide if the product is worth the price. I think it is reasonable to charge for new software, and $100 to update old hardware to the new profiling is fine by me, if the new profiling is worth it. I think it is also fine not to offer a software update for the old hardware.

What's not OK IMHO is lying and saying that it is a hardware limitation when it is not.

 

[Eagle]

"In order to avoid that new PROFILEs 2.0 get accidentally loaded into older OS revisions before OS 13, which might cause compatibility issues, we recommend to store new Rigs created with OS 14.0.0 once again with OS 14.0.1."

14.0.1 just dropped

is that a beta too?

 

[Orvillain]

In that one thread. If someone wants to talk openly they can start another thread.

It's about keeping things tidy.

Cope.

 

[Orvillain]

I have been posting on forums for decades. Kemper is BY FAR the most authoritarian and limiting of any forum I have ever seen. They permanently ban members for the most minor of infractions. They wield the whole "on-topic" infraction like a whip to the point that people are afraid to say much of anything for fear of being banned.

I'm seriously glad I told the mod to go fuck himself when I got booted from the beta team - not for saying I was moving to another product, not for disparaging the Kemper, but simply for being complimentary to the Quad Cortex.

I wouldn't be surprised if the business fails. They kinda deserve it.

 

[Sascha Franck]

but would cost say $100-200 for existing hardware owners, would that be more acceptable?

I think that would've been kinda reasonable (in case Mk1 units would indeed be able to properly run Mk2 profiles). They could then have added some little extras to the Mk2 hardware (such as the fixed FX blocks), so there'd be an incentive for people to still buy Mk2 units.
But in the end, that might've failed, too - maybe in that case it'd been better to not release any new hardware but just the new profiling and charging for it.
The only homerun possible would've been to release decent new hardware with significantly updated DSP power, no way around that.

 

[Chocol8]

maybe in that case it'd been better to not release any new hardware

I think they were forced to do MKII hardware due to chip availability. Faced with a choice of doing a full redesign, doing the absolute minimum, or dropping the product lines, they chose the minimum plus less green.

 

[OneEng]

I think they were forced to do MKII hardware due to chip availability. Faced with a choice of doing a full redesign, doing the absolute minimum, or dropping the product lines, they chose the minimum plus less green.

The linux system processor on the DIMM module for MK2 units is the same one used on the Player. The old one may well have been EOL (I haven't checked), but I think the bigger reason for this was that they encountered boot times getting longer and longer as well as having MIDI and other real time IO issues with the older slower system processor. Getting all product lines on the new processor gives them economy of scale for buying purposes (vs having several different ones for different models). It's also great for avoiding firmware bugs specific to one processor vs another.

The work needed for the "new" processor was already done for the Player development.

I personally wouldn't have blinked at even a $300 upgrade fee. I feel I have gotten plenty of value from my MK1 rack since 2013 and don't begrudge a company making a profit on their work if it is good work!

Trying to convince me that the same DSP can't run the same algorithms is a pretty tough sell; however, I am open to the pitch if someone has a good one?

I think the whole "system / IO processor" vs DSP processor is tough for most consumers to get an understanding of. It is easy to convince a consumer that somehow that new IO processor enables "new profiles". It's quite a bit harder to convince a hardware engineer (or firmware engineer) that this is true.

Still, I wish they would just come clean. It would be better for all (including Kemper) if they did. All they need to do is say "Hey, our genius engineers found a way to make MK1 play new profiles! It will be available by xxx for $yyy .... or you can get these features for free with the purchase of any MK2 product".

As it is, even though I really do love my Kemper, I feel like I would rather spend my next big money outlay with someone else other than the Nazi party at Kemper that banned me for speculation. Pretty sad state of affairs IMO.

 

[Antipodes]

is that a beta too?

Yep.

 

[Eagle]

The linux system processor on the DIMM module for MK2 units is the same one used on the Player. The old one may well have been EOL (I haven't checked), but I think the bigger reason for this was that they encountered boot times getting longer and longer as well as having MIDI and other real time IO issues with the older slower system processor. Getting all product lines on the new processor gives them economy of scale for buying purposes (vs having several different ones for different models). It's also great for avoiding firmware bugs specific to one processor vs another.

The work needed for the "new" processor was already done for the Player development.

I personally wouldn't have blinked at even a $300 upgrade fee. I feel I have gotten plenty of value from my MK1 rack since 2013 and don't begrudge a company making a profit on their work if it is good work!

Trying to convince me that the same DSP can't run the same algorithms is a pretty tough sell; however, I am open to the pitch if someone has a good one?

I think the whole "system / IO processor" vs DSP processor is tough for most consumers to get an understanding of. It is easy to convince a consumer that somehow that new IO processor enables "new profiles". It's quite a bit harder to convince a hardware engineer (or firmware engineer) that this is true.

Still, I wish they would just come clean. It would be better for all (including Kemper) if they did. All they need to do is say "Hey, our genius engineers found a way to make MK1 play new profiles! It will be available by xxx for $yyy .... or you can get these features for free with the purchase of any MK2 product".

As it is, even though I really do love my Kemper, I feel like I would rather spend my next big money outlay with someone else other than the Nazi party at Kemper that banned me for speculation. Pretty sad state of affairs IMO.

You can load beta 14 on to your mk1 and play version 2 profiles now . They claim at lower resolution but I am not hearing a difference between the same profile on a mk 1 and 2 device through the same speaker.

 

[Eagle]

Yep.

I’ve just loaded it.

 

[laxu]

Still, I wish they would just come clean. It would be better for all (including Kemper) if they did. All they need to do is say "Hey, our genius engineers found a way to make MK1 play new profiles! It will be available by xxx for $yyy .... or you can get these features for free with the purchase of any MK2 product".

That would just mean that it would make no sense for anyone to buy MK2 when you could buy a cheap MK1 and buy the upgrade probably like 1/3 of the money.

 

[Jarick]

I think they were forced to do MKII hardware due to chip availability. Faced with a choice of doing a full redesign, doing the absolute minimum, or dropping the product lines, they chose the minimum plus less green.

That's what I was thinking as well. If you set aside the V2 profiling the Mk2 release is quite solid, it's a slight performance improvement and no increase in price (especially considering inflation and other things).

 

[Enchilada Jones]

You can load beta 14 on to your mk1 and play version 2 profiles now . They claim at lower resolution but I am not hearing a difference between the same profile on a mk 1 and 2 device through the same speaker.

I wish that were true for me but I just spent a bunch of time creating a couple profiles to upload to Rig Exchange so my ears are quite tuned into what they sound like.
So when I read your post I went and loaded them into my toaster MKI and it sounds like the same profile for sure, as in, I recognize the amp...except it sounds thin and weak in the midrange and bottom.

Im listening through the same set of headphones from the same interface. Just unplugging the instrument cable and moving it to the input jack on Toaster and Player.
The Toaster and Player are sharing the same stereo pair into the interface inputs via a 4 channel stereo line mixer. settings on the two are same. Also I'm getting the same input levels at meters on interface regardless of which one Im playing through so it isn't a loudness or volume thing.

I'd love to keep the Toaster as it's powered and I love using the Kemper Kab but what I'm hearing says sell it. Not that Ill buy a mkII to replace it...maybe get a used one a year from now unless Proxy makes the Kemper experience end.

 

[OneEng]

That would just mean that it would make no sense for anyone to buy MK2 when you could buy a cheap MK1 and buy the upgrade probably like 1/3 of the money.

One can always buy an older used unit and get more value than buying new.

MK2 needs to appeal to a new buyer to Kemper IMO. If MK2 can't take a Helix, ToneX, QC, Fractal existing owner away, I seriously doubt that the percentage of existing MK1 users out there (that would buy MK2) are enough to sustain a business.

I'd love to keep the Toaster as it's powered and I love using the Kemper Kab but what I'm hearing says sell it. Not that Ill buy a mkII to replace it...maybe get a used one a year from now unless Proxy makes the Kemper experience end.

I believe that there are a good number of existing Kemper users that may feel the same way.

Have you tried tweaking the V2 profiles on your MK1 to get better results? From the people that have done this, the general consensus is that you can get very close on MK1.

Right now, there are a huge mix of different experiences I am hearing:

1. Most agree V2 profiles sound better than V1 profiles on EITHER MK1 or MK2 (although there is the one link I had where V1 got overwhelmingly better reviews than V2 .... this is an outlier so far)
2. Most agree that played without tweaking, V2 sounds better on MK2 than MK1
3. Most agree that when you tweak both, V2 sounds very close on MK2 and MK1

I will spend some time this weekend playing around with some of the V2 profiles on my MK1 and see how they compare to my favorite current profiles. This is a very subjective view though. I have a feeling I am still going to love my V1 Morgan AC20 rigs.... because good is good after all.

 

[Enchilada Jones]

One can always buy an older used unit and get more value than buying new.

MK2 needs to appeal to a new buyer to Kemper IMO. If MK2 can't take a Helix, ToneX, QC, Fractal existing owner away, I seriously doubt that the percentage of existing MK1 users out there (that would buy MK2) are enough to sustain a business.

I believe that there are a good number of existing Kemper users that may feel the same way.

Have you tried tweaking the V2 profiles on your MK1 to get better results? From the people that have done this, the general consensus is that you can get very close on MK1.

Right now, there are a huge mix of different experiences I am hearing:

1. Most agree V2 profiles sound better than V1 profiles on EITHER MK1 or MK2 (although there is the one link I had where V1 got overwhelmingly better reviews than V2 .... this is an outlier so far)
2. Most agree that played without tweaking, V2 sounds better on MK2 than MK1
3. Most agree that when you tweak both, V2 sounds very close on MK2 and MK1

I will spend some time this weekend playing around with some of the V2 profiles on my MK1 and see how they compare to my favorite current profiles. This is a very subjective view though. I have a feeling I am still going to love my V1 Morgan AC20 rigs.... because good is good after all.

I tried adding gain as it seemed that would help but quickly had more gain but wasn’t filling in the character of the sound that was missing, it was just adding gain that didn’t help.
Same with EQ.
Yes I could get it closer but I felt I was never going to be satisfied it was anything close to a match. Certainly It could have lead to a sound I liked but not ‘the sound’ it was supposed to be. Even if I did nothing it was a good sound but the idea is to get at least very close to ‘the sound’. Since I have a MkII Player it would be nothing but a time waste to tweak a MkI endlessly trying to stumble upon something I already have.