Kemper Profiler MK 2

[Blix]

Not always, I’d say it’s totally dependent on the drummer, the band, the style of music, and how much of the sound is coming through a PA vs how much of the sound is being heard acoustically in the room.

Personally I think a jazz trio in a small room always sounds better with acoustic drums, unless their sound depends on electronic sounds from the drums. E-drums don’t mix right and don’t sit right alongside the acoustic instruments

Also for jazz the "gold standard" drum sound is pretty much what the drums sounds acoustically. Lots of Top 40 bands could benefit from e-drums to "sound like the records", but you'll need a good PA too, and that is costly.

 

[Orvillain]

Also for jazz the "gold standard" drum sound is pretty much what the drums sounds acoustically.

Ehhhh... I think that is debateable tbh. Certainly on a recording.

 

[metropolis_4]

Also for jazz the "gold standard" drum sound is pretty much what the drums sounds acoustically. Lots of Top 40 bands could benefit from e-drums to "sound like the records", but you'll need a good PA too, and that is costly.

Sometimes though that can easily fall into the same trap as guitarists who try to use different amps in their modeler on every song to sound just like the recording.

E-drums are great when you need e-drum sounds though. If you’re playing in a top 40 band that covers songs that used e-drum sounds on the recording it’s great to have the ability to get those sounds live.

I’ve done some ‘80s pop shows with drummers using e-drums and it was a lot of fun to hear those sounds on songs like Holding Out For a Hero instead of hearing acoustic drums!

 

[JiveTurkey]

And this is definitely an instance where all those little tricks and whatnot actually matter. I band playing punk rock in a bar doesn’t really need to worry about the velocity of the ghost notes, lol. I guess I’ve just been to too many shows where weekend warriors haul I their full stacks and 73 piece drum kits to play with zero dynamics and vocals through a busted 12” Peavey from 1992. That band could almost sound like music in that space if everything could be mixed through a couple of mains and a sub versus whatever racket they’re making to drive people out to the smoking patio.

You can't play double drop E mathcore and use the ol' "patrons running screaming from the bar" logic Just like I can't bandy grey poupon music taste gifs about and then turn around and describe "audience" reception of our Love Shack and Talk Dirty to Me covers in the same breath

 

[JiveTurkey]

Sometimes though that can easily fall into the same trap as guitarists who try to use different amps in their modeler on every song to sound just like the recording.

E-drums are great when you need e-drum sounds though. If you’re playing in a top 40 band that covers songs that used e-drum sounds on the recording it’s great to have the ability to get those sounds live.

I’ve done some ‘80s pop shows with drummers using e-drums and it was a lot of fun to hear those sounds on songs like Holding Out For a Hero instead of hearing acoustic drums!

I'd love to see an 80s show with an e-kit. Other eras/genres probably not so much though.

 

[ian_dissonance]

You can't play double drop E mathcore and use the ol' "patrons running screaming from the bar" logic Just like I can't bandy grey poupon music taste gifs about and then turn around and describe "audience" reception of our Love Shack and Talk Dirty to Me covers in the same breath

Double drop A, ATCKTCHUALLEE. But there’s a difference between pushing people outside because they can’t comprehend numbers beyond 4 and doing it because it sounds like someone trying to orchestrate four train motors over someone hitting a tarp of shovels with a hammer because nobody can hear anything.

 

[DrewJD82]

I have 2 pages to catch up on still, but for the e-drum discussion, BLEGH.

I don't believe they're ready for the stage as of yet, the cymbals and snare are the biggest issues and here's a real life working example of how they sound through a multi-million dollar sound system in a beautiful theater-

While the hats aren't terrible, if you know the original recording they're lacking considerably, but when that ride cymbal comes in.....
And the snares have a cap, 127, it will never sound any 'more' than 127, where a real snare can sound remarkably different depending on how hard it's hit or where it's hit. This dude was laying into the fills and you'd see the intensity build but couldn't hear it, once that snare hits 127 that's it.

That snare sounds like it's going "pip' every time it gets hit.....Pip farting on a snare drum and Pip ain't fartin' on no snare drum!
Kick and toms are good to go, no gripes there, but where the dynamics REALLY matter on a kit they're just not there yet.

 

[JiveTurkey]

Double drop A, ATCKTCHUALLEE. But there’s a difference between pushing people outside because they can’t comprehend numbers beyond 4 and doing it because it sounds like someone trying to orchestrate four train motors over someone hitting a tarp of shovels with a hammer because nobody can hear anything.

Joking around aside; I've played gigs for coming on 30 years and I have never experienced groups beyond maybe stoner acts not aware of their surroundings that were this clueless. And even they got it once they realized the vocals were buried. I am sure it happens somewhere but not in my travels. Kind of in the same boat as the magic group of soundmen who routinely trip on mic stands so we should all be using IRs for live guitar instead

 

[OneEng]

Not always, I’d say it’s totally dependent on the drummer, the band, the style of music, and how much of the sound is coming through a PA vs how much of the sound is being heard acoustically in the room.

Personally I think a jazz trio in a small room always sounds better with acoustic drums, unless their sound depends on electronic sounds from the drums. E-drums don’t mix right and don’t sit right alongside the acoustic instruments

Jazz is definitely better played on acoustic!

That depends a lot on the drummer. I know drummers being able to play very groovy and even rock a bit at living room levels.
You obviously need to adjust your playing and possibly your kit for that as well, but most often it's still easier than making e-drums work, unless everybody is using IEMs or there's excellent stage monitoring.
I defenitely prefer real drums with a drummer being able to play at lower levels any day. Just as I prefer not using IEMs in general.

Sadly, I know VERY few who moderate their playing live in smaller venues. This is doubly true for those using IEM's as they are isolated from the acoustic sound and tend to hit even harder.

I guess I should moderate my statement to "The majority of live bands (not Jazz) sound better overall when using eDrums". I also happen to be one of those guys that believes that the band sounds better without wedges and uses IEM's.

All of this (including the use of guitar modelers) is part of the entire "silent stage" vs "loud stage" discussion which modelers like the MK2 (the topic of this thread) are .... mostly .... part of.

Shifting the discussion a bit, I think that any lead player needs to have a source of air moving near their strings.... so not a completely silent stage.

 

[Sascha Franck]

This is doubly true for those using IEM's as they are isolated from the acoustic sound and tend to hit even harder.

I absolutely agree on that. Drummers playing with IEMs on small venues are a curse.

 

[ian_dissonance]

Joking around aside; I've played gigs for coming on 30 years and I have never experienced groups beyond maybe stoner acts not aware of their surroundings that were this clueless. And even they got it once they realized the vocals were buried. I am sure it happens somewhere but not in my travels. Kind of in the same boat as the magic group of soundmen who routinely trip on mic stands so we should all be using IRs for live guitar instead

I can find two a weekend, every weekend, lol. The bad sounding and oblivious bands, that is. Even if you want to use a cab, I’d prefer not to leave the mic’ing up to the house guy, lol.

 

[JiveTurkey]

I can find two a weekend, every weekend, lol. The bad sounding and oblivious bands, that is. Even if you want to use a cab, I’d prefer not to leave the mic’ing up to the house guy, lol.

Maybe it's a regional thing? We are in a small midwest area and either we're doing our own sound or having some other experience with a soundman with the rig from hell and really loving it? Also; I use IRs for my sounds so self-hypocrisy duly noted!

 

[molul]

I think the same reply I gave in the post above applies here as well.

Anyway, a keyboard is a lot more easy to make it behave like a real piano than e-drums like real drums, just make the keys with the same weight, carefully calibrate the velocity and you're basically done.

It is more easy, yet vastly used instruments like Nord keyboards don't have weighted keys, so it seems feeling is not really a problem in that case. So why should it be for drums?

I know there are many cases where el using e-drums is unthinkable, but many styles could use them without sounding horrible at all.




(At 3:05) I wouldn't complain about a gig played like that, for instance.

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

I bet he did! That’s awesome.

The big difference is that with digital guitar gear the guitarist is still getting to play their analog guitar, and they can still play it the same way they are used to playing it. Everything you can do on the guitar you can still do with a digital modeler because it’s not replacing the instrument itself, just the amplification and signal processing of what comes out of the guitar.

With e-drums you’re replacing the instrument itself. You can’t play it the same way. You can’t still do anything you could do on acoustic drums, you have to think differently and approach the instrument differently.

Up to a point. To me the guitar is only half of the equation. What comes after is just as important.
At least when we talk electric.

Very much the reason that when I was younger and I played through amps that didn’t respond like the stuff I was used to I found them crap.
Whereas starting about a decade ago I adjusted my playing to the amp.

And on top of that the whole sound thing, I believe that what feeds back into the pickup from all sources (cab, monitors, reflections)
Has a huge impact how we perceive tone at the moment. Whereas when we listen back without playing it’s not as glorious.

Part of the amp in the room thing I believe. Or better put sound source in the room

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

Arguably, that band should just be filling your car with diesel and getting a 20cents tip every 6th time they do it.

<ducks>

Or no tip if it ain’t a diesel.

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

The band sounds better in small to medium venues with edrums because there is no bleeding into all other mics.

It's also much more of a hassle to mic up acoustic drums than to setup edrums.

It's interesting that the edrum discussion evolved back to capture accuracy.... Predictable... But interesting.

How do you extrapolate any Kemper capture accuracy in the side discussion? Really reaching there

 

[ian_dissonance]

Maybe it's a regional thing? We are in a small midwest area and either we're doing our own sound or having some other experience with a soundman with the rig from hell and really loving it? Also; I use IRs for my sounds so self-hypocrisy duly noted!

I’m playing Twin Cities to UP to Chicago and Madison. There are definitely levels to it. We typically aren’t playing the shows with the gear caveman bands, but they’re easy enough to find. I don’t usually have sound guy issues, but they’re busy and moving 1000 directions, why worry about if the SM57 ends up in the right place.

 

[metropolis_4]

Up to a point. To me the guitar is only half of the equation. What comes after is just as important.
At least when we talk electric.

Very much the reason that when I was younger and I played through amps that didn’t respond like the stuff I was used to I found them crap.
Whereas starting about a decade ago I adjusted my playing to the amp.

And on top of that the whole sound thing, I believe that what feeds back into the pickup from all sources (cab, monitors, reflections)
Has a huge impact how we perceive tone at the moment. Whereas when we listen back without playing it’s not as glorious.

Part of the amp in the room thing I believe. Or better put sound source in the room

I agree with you, but can you understand the point I was trying to make that the part you’re physically interacting with is different?

I really think the best analogy to a drummer playing e-drums is a guitar player playing one of those MIDI guitars with no strings and buttons on the fretboard.

 

[metropolis_4]

It is more easy, yet vastly used instruments like Nord keyboards don't have weighted keys, so it seems feeling is not really a problem in that case. So why should it be for drums?

It’s a preference thing. I know many keyboard players who come from a piano background who will not use anything that isn’t fully weighted hammer action keys.

 

[molul]

It’s a preference thing. I know many keyboard players who come from a piano background who will not use anything that isn’t fully weighted hammer action keys.

That's true, but think of the many keyboard and synth players that haven't probably ever bothered with hammered keys

Or think a about electric guitarists that never cared about acoustic ones.