Kemper Profiler MK 2

[toneseeker911]

@GuitarJon is not impressed

It does sound like ass here.

 

[DrewJD82]

less clicks because too many youtubers and sinking interest in their ever repeating content. Like the newspapers, they need to make up negative loud stories to attract clicks. Pretty desperate in my opinion and nothing I will engage with.

Is it your belief that Jon edited this video to make the Kemper look bad?

 

[paisleywookiee]

There are quite a few people who believe Fractal sounds best ...... and it doesn't capture AT ALL. It is therefore reasonable to expect that a great many people rely on something other than a null test to determine what sounds best.

Apples/Oranges. Fractal A. isn't a capture device, and B. can be made to sound extremely similar, given like for like model.

 

[paisleywookiee]

less clicks because too many youtubers and sinking interest in their ever repeating content. Like the newspapers, they need to make up negative loud stories to attract clicks. Pretty desperate in my opinion and nothing I will engage with.

Automatically accusing someone of being disingenuous is a cop out, particularly when they've got no track record of such.

 

[OneEng]

Oh, I was responding in the context of what Orvillain said about accuracy and capture packs sales, that we "don't know if the captures are accurate". Your response was that "this is true for all capture devices" and that accuracy is "largely unimportant when buying packs", to my understanding.

On that end, I think some devices are more successful in consistently capturing amps, than others. This raises my trust in buying packs made for these devices. Accuracy matters to me if I buy packs, whether it's about capture devices failing to work their best in capturing an amp (like what happens with some amps and Kemper), or inaccuracies that linger even when capturing works the best it can.

In terms of Kemper profiling specifically, I sure think it's accurate enough for us to tell a difference between fender blackface and AC30 cleans. But things are nuanced when I'm making direct profiles of different high gain amps, even if you can tell a difference. No cab (other than as load) or mic to influence the sound.

These amps often sound and feel much more similar to each other than people at times assume, in my experience, in the first place. Surgical accuracy becomes important for me if I'm trying to capture the differences or buying captures that aim to do so.

Kemper typically left me dissatisfied on that end, especially in terms of feel. There was/is a sameness to the profiles that isn't there in the real amps even if the profiles don't sound/feel the exact same to each other. Tonex does considerably better on this end in my captures. The best has been NAM, both in possible accuracy and consistency of results.

The new profiling has to arrive for people to make tests and see if Kempers new claims hold weight (however these claims evolve over time). But for me, Kemper isn't at the point where it's "accurate enough not to matter". It's off by a margin where my right hand is bothered by it. And I don't do any NULL tests.

But that's just my view, of course. Clearly many people feel differently. I really don't know what CK himself thinks considering we're going from "perfect to perfecter", then claims changing from most presice to most powerful.

All great points.

If you are buying a capture/profile, how is it possible to assess if it is accurate unless you have the exact amp setup that made the profile/capture?

.... and this leads to the discussion on the importance of accuracy vs the importance of "it sounds great". FWIW, for me, this also includes the efx chain setup as well.

The amount of users out there actively capturing their tube amps is very small. It has been suggested on this forum that the number is <1%. All the remaining people are downloading captures/profiles and tweaking them to get a sound they are looking for.

My contention is that for >99% of the buying public, "It sounds great" is more important than a Null test.... and that part of "It sounds great" is how well the efx chain is setup .... and how easily the device allows the >99% users to tweak to what sounds good to them.

So I agree that for the ~ 1% of users that ACTUALLY capture/profile, accuracy is very important.

Now to your point, you are saying that Kemper is off enough that it sounds or feels bad to you. I agree that this is a major issue; however, it hasn't been my experience .... which isn't to say it isn't true, only that I haven't experienced it.

Ughhh, this argument again…fractal isn’t a capture device, Kemper is. Therefore kempers goal should be to exactly replicate the source as closely as possible, a lot of times it doesn’t, maybe to some the result sounds better as it’s more polished or processed. Again though that’s not the point….there should be no better or worse with capture devices, just accuracy, the result will sound better or worse depending on your opinion of the source, not inaccuracies that you may perceive as pleasing.

yes I know it sounds weird to argue against something that could potentially sound “better” than the source but now we’re into subjective opinions. Many people stay away from Kemper due to its ‘sound’ - yes it has one.

If the goal is just to make something that sounds good but not chase accuracy then Kemper should just release a bunch of liquid profiles, not tell anyone what they are, and call them models.

Again, I don't think it matters to >99% of users out there. It only matters that it sounds great and that it gets the job done well.

Last night I created a rig explicitly for "Your Love" by "The Outfield" introduction riff. I looked up what was used on the recording (JCM800, Fender Telecaster, and some double tracking, verb and delay.

I downloaded a decent JCM800, put my PRS on the bridge PUP and pulled the tone knob for single coil, setup a delay with the proper time, put a hall natural verb on it, and after a little experimentation decided I liked a micro-chorus to thicken it up more than the double tracker. All done in about 15 minutes and it sounds fantastic.

I got pretty darned close to the original, and I think that the biggest difference is likely not the Kemper rig I made but rather using a split coil PRS bridge PUP vs a Telecaster (It actually got me wishing I owned a Telecaster as there are some sounds you can get with those that are impossible on other guitars IME).

Now, I explicitly gig my system, so what is important to me is likely not important to people who don't gig.

 

[OneEng]

Apples/Oranges. Fractal A. isn't a capture device, and B. can be made to sound extremely similar, given like for like model.

Currently, every Fractal and Line 6 user in existence decided that sounding "extremely similar", and other factors were more important that capture accuracy.

Most Kemper users are in this same group. In fact, most players in general are in this group regardless of what rig they use.

 

[paisleywookiee]

Currently, every Fractal and Line 6 user in existence decided that sounding "extremely similar", and other factors were more important that capture accuracy.

Most Kemper users are in this same group. In fact, most players in general are in this group regardless of what rig they use.

I disagree. If I'm "capturing" a specific amp because I specifically purchased a capture device, it's because I want it to sound exactly like what I'm capturing, and not the wild inconsistency that Kempers often produce.

 

[Jarick]

Are we using null tests with Fractal as well? If not how are we able to compare the quality and accuracy of that modeling?

I get wanting to be objective, but the whole null test thing can be really silly when you're talking about the device holistically.

 

[paisleywookiee]

Are we using null tests with Fractal as well? If not how are we able to compare the quality and accuracy of that modeling?

I get wanting to be objective, but the whole null test thing can be really silly when you're talking about the device holistically.

That's not really possible, since we don't have access to the amps being modeled.

 

[ian_dissonance]

The argument doesn’t matter if 99% users don’t care about accuracy. That’s never what anyone was saying. Let’s try boomer typing here.

THE WHOLE POINT OF A CAPTURE OR PROFILE DEVICE IS 1:1 ACCURACY AS CLOSE AS POSSIBLE REGARDLESS OF THE USER’S ENJOYMENT OF INACCURATE CAPTURES OR PROFILES.

This whole thing is like “hey, they missed the field goal” and then someone says “well most people are just happy with a first down”.

 

[JiveTurkey]

Eww, sports

 

[Jarick]

Alright, I'm completely out on this accuracy discussion. It has nothing to do with the purpose of use of the gear and is strictly confined to a narrow set of measurements.

 

[Mongillo19]

Eww, sports

Someone explain this in terms of Limp Bizkit or Trumpets

 

[ian_dissonance]

Someone explain this in terms of Limp Bizkit or Trumpets

“This isn’t $3 Bill Ya’ll?!”
“Most people are fine with Significant Other.”

 

[ian_dissonance]

Eww, sports

Well, the uh, goalposts keep moving.

 

[JiveTurkey]

“This isn’t $3 Bill Ya’ll?!”
“Most people are fine with Significant Other.”

I like Significant Other better, overall

 

[ian_dissonance]

I like Significant Other better, overall

Oh no.

 

[paisleywookiee]

“This isn’t $3 Bill Ya’ll?!”
“Most people are fine with Significant Other.”

"Even if Wes Borland's makeup is smeared a little, it doesn't affect people further than 3 rows back."

 

[JiveTurkey]

Oh no.

IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW

 

[Dimiguitar]

Now to your point, you are saying that Kemper is off enough that it sounds or feels bad to you. I agree that this is a major issue; however, it hasn't been my experience .... which isn't to say it isn't true, only that I haven't experienced it.

Again, I don't think it matters to >99% of users out there. It only matters that it sounds great and that it gets the job done well.

I think there's often the danger with this stuff where people try and project their own taste and perception onto others, seeking to invalidate experiences unfairly.

I've seen it go both ways: that people will be very cynical towards others who are happy with their modeller/capturer tones, or then wholesale rejections about someone's experience being less favourable (mocking them for golden ears, etc).

So I am glad you don't simply dismiss what I am saying, at least as a metaphysically subjective experience, but also hold true to your view/experience with Kemper tones.

At any rate, I am curious to see MKII profiling (said this too many times I guess) and what it achieves.