Kemper Profiler MK 2

[OneEng]

Btw, following the "doesn't feel like the real deal", "only a real amp/cab experience is acceptable" (add a bit of amp-in-the-room flavour to it...) and what not discussion throughout the last pages, I feel like an outlier.

In all seriousness, if anything, the greatest aspect of modeling for me as a live player (at least once modeling had crossed a certain "quality threshold", which IMO it has) is that I *don't* have to deal with all that archaic, inconsistent mess anymore. Which is especially true for cabs. If I wasn't using modeling for my core tones but wanted to keep using whatever real amps, I'm sure that by now I'd run them through a load box and then into whatever FR system.
The differences in projection of one and the same cab under different conditions has been driving me bonkers as long as I can think of. I own (or owned, some are still there) some great sounding cabs and while they were fantastic at times, *all* of them sucked so much ass at other times, it's simply been maddening. Even my 70s Orange 4x12 (/w well worn in old Greenbacks), possibly the best cab for my taste I've ever played through, has been a victim of that more than just once (let alone the handling aspects).
I really did everything to adress these issues. Got a Deeflexx, came up with a modified variation myself, installed "speaker donuts", whatever. And as far as the FOH signal goes, I always brought my own mic, mounted with a mic clamp straight on the cabs, the position carefully measured.
In the end, it was all working fine, sometimes great - just that more often than what I found acceptable, it wasn't.

Add to all this that with FR solutions, I can have the same sound (minus the dreaded Fletcher Munson thing...) while practising at home, playing on small vs. large stages, playing with IEMs vs. monitors, etc. Especially being able to have my live sound at appartment volumes is possibly worth more than anything else.

In a nutshell: Someone would basically have to point a gun to my head to make me use a real cab ever again (unless the situation dictates it, such as on sessions or rental backline gigs).

Oh hell yea!

I loved everything about how my VHT UL and Fender BF sounded .... and I hated any gig I had to haul them to and do setup on. A VHT P90 4x12 cab is about 3 times as heavy as any other cab I have ever lifted as well!

Give me my Kemper and IEM's any day!

Ok ... this is weird ... apparently the exact same profiles and same efx and same settings etc.... on MK1 and MK2 - the Gain profiles sound *totally* different ... the Clean profiles much more "identical"

This should not be the case as (a) they cant be MK2 profiles as that FW isn't out and (b) being [ MK1 ] Legacy Profiles, they should sound identical on each unit I would have thought (?)

To the best of my knowledge, C.K / Kemper have made zero claims about the MK2 playing back MK1 profiles "differently" or "better" (?)

Something very strange going on either with this video -or- the MK2 playing back MK1 Legacy Profiles really changes their sound (?)

This has been reported by a couple of people, but I still don't believe it for all the reasons pointed out in this thread.

Could you imagine the uproar if the MK2 played MK1 made profiles but changed their sound ???????

Would make the Player $$ upgrade "issues" look like a convivial tea party !

Yep. One of the key features of Kemper has been that rigs don't change tone ...... EVER. Imagine if they DID? That means you can't actually use your Kemper Player as a backup because it doesn't sound the same!

Remember this - whenever you buy a profile, you have no real idea of whether it is accurate or not. Could be the maker just churned out some shite and charged you 20 bux for it.

This is true no matter what capture device you purchase a capture for. You can either get something that sounds great, or like crap. The key IMO to all of these types of devices is how easily you can tweak the original to something pleasing to your own ears. "Accuracy" is largely unimportant if you are purchasing a profile/capture .... only "sounds great" matters.

I've seen a couple of posts from people thinking a "true successor" will follow up soon, but it feels like wishful thinking.

Not even a whisper of a rumor of it. I have to admit that their engineering effort on MKII was nearly non-existent. I am currently of the belief that they didn't even change the DSP board in the Rack, Toaster or Stage. They simply reused the mainboards and stuck an updated applications processor in the DIMM slot.

This is why features like integrated WiFi and True Impedance circuits are missing from the Rack and Toaster ..... the main board is not changed at all..... just the application processor in the DIMM slot and a new paint job.

They could have released something as trivial as a new foot controller having a fancy OLED scribble strips .... shoot, they could even have decided that the new foot controller would only work with MKII. At least then MKII would have some meaningful changes.

Kemper reps have already said the sounds are the exact same. If they had a reason to say it was better they would.

The player already has the MK2 signal path and sounds the same, nobody said a peep about it sounding different.

Would be pretty idiotic to make their biggest advantage, the vast back catalog of profiles in MK1 format sound completely different.

This is why I also doubt that there is any change in the sound between MK1 and MKII ..... also, from above, I have a feeling the actual main board didn't change making it impossible for there to be a real difference.

Another piece of anecdotal evidence ..... if there was a tonal change, why wasn't this reported by the plethora of Kemper Player users who also have one of the other models?

 

[dws2384]

Another piece of anecdotal evidence ..... if there was a tonal change, why wasn't this reported by the plethora of Kemper Player users who also have one of the other models?

Placebo effect. It wasn’t until anyone was told it was a MK2 product that people started coming out with all the typical BS claims - clarity, warmth, responsiveness

 

[dws2384]

This is why features like integrated WiFi and True Impedance circuits are missing from the Rack and Toaster ..... the main board is not changed at all..... just the application processor in the DIMM slot and a new paint job.

Bingo

Either they think their customers are stupid and wouldn’t figure it out or they don’t care.

Full disclaimer, I like and own Kemper products and I think they sound good…the lack effort is kinda lame though.

 

[quadgear]

Bingo

Either they think their customers are stupid and wouldn’t figure it out or they don’t care.

Full disclaimer, I like and own Kemper products and I think they sound good…the lack effort is kinda lame though.

I think they thought of this exactly as the Fractal Mk x/Turbo models. Incremental hardware updates that replace current shipping models. They could be more transparent about what is supported/changed....

 

[Dimiguitar]

This is true no matter what capture device you purchase a capture for. You can either get something that sounds great, or like crap. The key IMO to all of these types of devices is how easily you can tweak the original to something pleasing to your own ears. "Accuracy" is largely unimportant if you are purchasing a profile/capture .... only "sounds great" matters.

Personally, if I buy a pack of an orange amp, I want the captures to sound and feel as close to the actual orange amp as possible. I like different kinds of tones, with different characteristics and feel.

I don't want these homogenized because of needless inaccuracies, having profiles of an orange and a Friedman feel and sound unrealistically similar to each other.

On that end, other factors being equal, I would be more likely to trust capture packs sold for devices and software that do a better and more consistent job capturing than other units may.

 

[ian_dissonance]

Ohh thats so sad to know.... double?

Aw you’re not gonna like it…

 

[Jarick]

Just to make sure we’re on the same page…

Mk1 and mk2 running old profiles should sound the same

New profiling that only runs on mk2 hardware is not out yet and nobody has heard it

 

[dws2384]

I think they thought of this exactly as the Fractal Mk x/Turbo models. Incremental hardware updates that replace current shipping models. They could be more transparent about what is supported/changed....

That’s not really how it was marketed….for turbo it was an option if you wanted it and then when they ran out of the old chips that became the new product, the FM9 and FM3 didn’t have the option but they just became turbo when the chip family was upgraded by the manufacturer.

This was marketed as ‘the most precise’ oh wait, no now it’s ‘the most powerful’ amp capturing ever, coming SOON although it only runs on MK2 for reasons nobody can decipher.

All of the current fractal products turbo or non run the exact same quality

 

[nicolasrivera]

Just to make sure we’re on the same page…

Mk1 and mk2 running old profiles should sound the same

New profiling that only runs on mk2 hardware is not out yet and nobody has heard it

And the really, only valid test, to prove IF they actually are better, when they come out, is the NULL TEST!!!!!

Opinions of guitars players, etc. are not at all important, only the NULL TEST, that will tell us whats what and whos is who in the modeling world!

 

[molul]

I've seen a couple of posts from people thinking a "true successor" will follow up soon, but it feels like wishful thinking.

That wouldn't make sense in any way. Why would you release mk2 and shortly after a new flagship? If you have the latter in the short-term roadmap, you don't put money on the former.

I do believe they'll start working on a new flagship immediately, if they want to stay alive in 5 years.

 

[dws2384]

And the really, only valid test, to prove IF they actually are better, when they come out, is the NULL TEST!!!!!

Opinions of guitars players, etc. are not at all important, only the NULL TEST, that will tell us whats what and whos is who in the modeling world!

If null tests are invalid then why do the ‘winners’ of the null test seem to be the products most people universally agree (except kemper users) sound best?

Its just a simple test to see what copies the source most accurately, isnt that the whole point of the profiling/capturing product? Sure the resulting profile can ‘sound good’ but if you’re taking the time to profile some expensive amp through some vintage cab with thousands in mic’s and pre’s wouldn’t you want it to sound indistinguishable? Some Kemper profiles do, and a good chunk don’t. Other products do a better job currently and are taking a lot of the market. Kemper already has so many advantages and a great eco system, why the hell wouldnt they want to make the core feature of their product better? I can’t believe people argue against this.

Reading people defend it is like the people that say the POD 2.0 was good enough…I mean ya I guess, but the newer stuff has gotten objectively better. How many players that say it sounded good enough are still gigging with one?

 

[BenIfin]

Yeah, the video explains why. tl;dr he just couldn't get some amps to capture properly on the MKII Kemper.

Yep. Just ask me how I could never Capture my DC30 [clone] with the MV disengaged and it roaring nice and loud - just could not get it right - and I tried more times than is healthy :)

For people who make profiles, this video is saying something almost everyone knows and has been known since almost Day 1.

To me, the only tests that will matter is when GuitarJon and others load the as yet to be released MK2 Profiling FW and -then- do some A/B testing.

Therein the "truth" will lay.

 

[Dimiguitar]

Sure the resulting profile can ‘sound good’ but if you’re taking the time to profile some expensive amp through some vintage cab with thousands in mic’s and pre’s wouldn’t you want it to sound indistinguishable?

I think that's been the main premise of Kemper since the beginning.

 

[OneEng]

Bingo

Either they think their customers are stupid and wouldn’t figure it out or they don’t care.

Full disclaimer, I like and own Kemper products and I think they sound good…the lack effort is kinda lame though.

I'm going with "don't care". I am guessing that there will be a paid upgrade for existing MK1 users though. In fact, I think that was the entire point of MK2.

Full disclaimer, I like and own a Kemper Rack and know it sounds good! The lack of effort is sad for me. I don't think they can continue as a profitable company unless they innovate.... and they are a fantastic gig machine. I would be sorry to see them go .... and also have no desire to try and recreate all my sounds on something else!

Personally, if I buy a pack of an orange amp, I want the captures to sound and feel as close to the actual orange amp as possible. I like different kinds of tones, with different characteristics and feel.

I don't want these homogenized because of needless inaccuracies, having profiles of an orange and a Friedman feel and sound unrealistically similar to each other.

On that end, other factors being equal, I would be more likely to trust capture packs sold for devices and software that do a better and more consistent job capturing than other units may.

My amps sound VERY different to me in my Kemper. I do love a good Orange as well . As an example, my Tripple Recto sounds VERY different from my Soldano even though both are "high gain". Certainly no one would say the AC30 sounds anything like a Fender Blackface even though both are "clean". My VHT captured pretty well. When I mic'ed the VHT and played the Kemper direct to the PA, I didn't null test it, but it was awful close. Furthermore, I actually liked my Kemper version better after tweaking it in Kemper in ways that can't be done on the amp.

I also think that the workflow and efx capabilities are very important. It isn't just capture accuracy ..... at least for me. This isn't to say that more accuracy wouldn't be better, only that it isn't "all important".... otherwise, I wouldn't be using Kemper, I would be using a NAM player.

Just to make sure we’re on the same page…

Mk1 and mk2 running old profiles should sound the same

New profiling that only runs on mk2 hardware is not out yet and nobody has heard it

Well, that is where my head is at least. It seems like there is a brewing controversy from some that your statements are not entirely true. Additionally, I see no technical reason that the new profiling CAN'T run on MK1 hardware.

And the really, only valid test, to prove IF they actually are better, when they come out, is the NULL TEST!!!!!

Opinions of guitars players, etc. are not at all important, only the NULL TEST, that will tell us whats what and whos is who in the modeling world!

As long as the subject is limited to the accuracy of the capture, then I agree the Null test is the best tool.

Since many people (me included) believe that once you reach a certain level of accuracy (ie, its hard for anyone to hear the difference even in isolation), then other factors become more important (like efx quality, workflow, durability, etc).

If null tests are invalid then why do the ‘winners’ of the null test seem to be the products most people universally agree (except kemper users) sound best?

There are quite a few people who believe Fractal sounds best ...... and it doesn't capture AT ALL. It is therefore reasonable to expect that a great many people rely on something other than a null test to determine what sounds best.

 

[Dimiguitar]

My amps sound VERY different to me in my Kemper. I do love a good Orange as well . As an example, my Tripple Recto sounds VERY different from my Soldano even though both are "high gain". Certainly no one would say the AC30 sounds anything like a Fender Blackface even though both are "clean". My VHT captured pretty well. When I mic'ed the VHT and played the Kemper direct to the PA, I didn't null test it, but it was awful close. Furthermore, I actually liked my Kemper version better after tweaking it in Kemper in ways that can't be done on the amp.

I also think that the workflow and efx capabilities are very important. It isn't just capture accuracy ..... at least for me. This isn't to say that more accuracy wouldn't be better, only that it isn't "all important".... otherwise, I wouldn't be using Kemper, I would be using a NAM player.

Oh, I was responding in the context of what Orvillain said about accuracy and capture packs sales, that we "don't know if the captures are accurate". Your response was that "this is true for all capture devices" and that accuracy is "largely unimportant when buying packs", to my understanding.

On that end, I think some devices are more successful in consistently capturing amps, than others. This raises my trust in buying packs made for these devices. Accuracy matters to me if I buy packs, whether it's about capture devices failing to work their best in capturing an amp (like what happens with some amps and Kemper), or inaccuracies that linger even when capturing works the best it can.

In terms of Kemper profiling specifically, I sure think it's accurate enough for us to tell a difference between fender blackface and AC30 cleans. But things are nuanced when I'm making direct profiles of different high gain amps, even if you can tell a difference. No cab (other than as load) or mic to influence the sound.

These amps often sound and feel much more similar to each other than people at times assume, in my experience, in the first place. Surgical accuracy becomes important for me if I'm trying to capture the differences or buying captures that aim to do so.

Kemper typically left me dissatisfied on that end, especially in terms of feel. There was/is a sameness to the profiles that isn't there in the real amps even if the profiles don't sound/feel the exact same to each other. Tonex does considerably better on this end in my captures. The best has been NAM, both in possible accuracy and consistency of results.

The new profiling has to arrive for people to make tests and see if Kempers new claims hold weight (however these claims evolve over time). But for me, Kemper isn't at the point where it's "accurate enough not to matter". It's off by a margin where my right hand is bothered by it. And I don't do any NULL tests.

But that's just my view, of course. Clearly many people feel differently. I really don't know what CK himself thinks considering we're going from "perfect to perfecter", then claims changing from most presice to most powerful.

 

[Dimiguitar]

I edited my post several times due to lack of coffee. Hopefully it's clearer now.

 

[Jarick]

In terms of Kemper profiling specifically, I sure think it's accurate enough for us to tell a difference between fender blackface and AC30 cleans. But things are nuanced when I'm making direct profiles of different high gain amps, even if you can tell a difference. No cab (other than as load) or mic to influence the sound.

These amps often sound and feel much more similar to each other than people at times assume, in my experience, in the first place. Surgical accuracy becomes important for me if I'm trying to capture the differences or buying captures that aim to do so.

Kemper typically left me dissatisfied on that end, especially in terms of feel. There was/is a sameness to the profiles that isn't there in the real amps even if the profiles don't sound/feel the exact same to each other. Tonex does considerably better on this end in my captures. The best has been NAM, both in possible accuracy and consistency of results.

I think I'd agree on the high gain profiles, amps tend to sound a lot more similar than other devices. It can be a bit "blurry" rather than having really good string definition. The low gain and clean stuff can be very sweet sounding and feeling.

I think I have to go try a NAM plugin. Tonex sounds good when I can get it to work. I don't think I'm interested in the hardware version at all though.

 

[dws2384]

There are quite a few people who believe Fractal sounds best ...... and it doesn't capture AT ALL. It is therefore reasonable to expect that a great many people rely on something other than a null test to determine what sounds

Ughhh, this argument again…fractal isn’t a capture device, Kemper is. Therefore kempers goal should be to exactly replicate the source as closely as possible, a lot of times it doesn’t, maybe to some the result sounds better as it’s more polished or processed. Again though that’s not the point….there should be no better or worse with capture devices, just accuracy, the result will sound better or worse depending on your opinion of the source, not inaccuracies that you may perceive as pleasing.

yes I know it sounds weird to argue against something that could potentially sound “better” than the source but now we’re into subjective opinions. Many people stay away from Kemper due to its ‘sound’ - yes it has one.

If the goal is just to make something that sounds good but not chase accuracy then Kemper should just release a bunch of liquid profiles, not tell anyone what they are, and call them models.

 

[Dimiguitar]

Ughhh, this argument again…fractal isn’t a capture device, Kemper is. Therefore kempers goal should be to exactly replicate the source as closely as possible, a lot of times it doesn’t, maybe to some the result sounds better as it’s more polished or processed. Again though that’s not the point….there should be no better or worse with capture devices, just accuracy, the result will sound better or worse depending on your opinion of the source, not inaccuracies that you may perceive as pleasing.

Agreed. And also, for that matter, Fractal amp sims tweaked right have been typically closer in feel to my amps than my profiles of these amps. It's part of why I use fractal most of the time. From some point on, it felt pointless to make profiles. Why sacrifice flexibility for an end result I think is inferior?

It can all change with the new profiling though (for Kemper). There do exist amps that differ too much from what is in fractal units, in my experience. Especially then, for me, it's pretty cool to be able to shoot captures of these tones.

 

[DrewJD82]

Kidding aside, is that truly accurate though? I have seen numerous posts of users who claim amp sim perfection only to have their minds blown by new firmware (times x100). But I cannot remember Cliff making such claims. Maybe it's happened in the past and I haven't seen it or don't remember it.

When Cliff first started talking about the AxeFX, I believe before it even started shipping, he was mostly discussing his thoughts on the digital realm and how it hadn’t been given enough attention, knowing it was capable if someone was motivated enough to put the work in and he signed himself up for the challenge. I don’t recall any outright claims it was exact at that point, just that the capability was there.

There were a couple years after the launch I didn’t follow too closely along but from memory the only time Cliff’s made claims about things sounding exact is when he’s brought up his A/B tests between the actual amp and the AxeFX plugged into a power amp and cab. The “more realer” stuff was definitely born from users on the forum.