Global features on modelers suck

[ian_dissonance]

Not as long as it's switched on, only in case you reboot it.

Hmm, if it does it must take a while to update additional presets. I’ve 100% just reverted and unwanted change by banking up and back.

 

[yek]

With this system, I guess you'd always have to go to that specific preset first to make any changes to say your Amp block. Then remember to propagate those changes to other presets.

Not that specific preset. Any preset with a linked block. That's not different from how it's now (on the Axe-Fx III).

 

[Sascha Franck]

Hmm, if it does it must take a while to update additional presets. I’ve 100% just reverted and unwanted change by banking up and back.

I had some glitches happening as well - but they seem to require certain "special conditions" which I could never exactly reproduce. In general however, global blocks are in "autosave" mode. And I defenitely think that's how they should work (but as said, I'd be fine with an on/off setting for the autosave function).

 

[Sascha Franck]

@ian_dissonance, have a look, no manual saving, LM Gain (routed to one of the encoders for global quick access) is the same between two presets:

 

[ian_dissonance]

I just want this to be simple enough that modeler makers don’t overthink it to the point of omitting it. I feel like L6 might try to make it an original enough idea that it’s not easy to implement, kind of like dynamic modifiers. I can’t imagine a reason not to have them. Same with global block options.

 

[Sascha Franck]

I just want this to be simple enough that modeler makers don’t overthink it to the point of omitting it.

Oh, absolutely! And I'm sort of in the "anything is better than nothing" camp. Things should also offer the easiest and most transparent access from a user's POV.
Yet, I think there's at least some things that really need to be taken care off.

My main gripe would defenitely be to avoid anything that could end up in users doing tweaks to patches accidentally just because they've forgotten to deactivate certain global blocks. The Boss system defenitely lends to these things lurking around the corner all the time. I'm not exactly digital- or Boss-illiterate (in fact, I'd say it's kinda like the opposite), and yet I've been running into issues one or two times.

The next big issue (not as big, though) would be organizing global blocks. By now, after thinking about it yet some more, I'd pretty much strictly vote against any kind of "sub preset" system or whatsoever. The reasons being:

1) I would not like being limited by the overall number of global blocks - for instance, I'm actually running into the Boss limitation of 10 presets per global block only for the parametric EQ because my idea was to have one global EQ per each Tonex One preset I may ever use (fwiw, this approach is working extremely well), and with four slots already used up (two acoustic settings, two lead leveling settings), I've only got 6 left. Not good.

2) I fear one could end up with an enormous amount of these global block presets - and you'd really never know when it was safe to delete any of them. Unlike there was a kind of managing system, informing you about a) whether a global block preset is used, b) how many patches are using it and c) which patches they are. Again, I'm already running into issues with the GT's way of doing things as there's some global block presets where I simply don't know whether they're still in use in some banks. Now, I started documenting things ever since I was running into that, but it shouldn't be required doing such things.
Adding any kind of managment system however might be a lot more of a programming issue than tackling the entire thing in a different way straight from the start. And it might still not help the user much, simply because you might never want to delete any global blocks.

As a result of all of these, I still think a group-based approach would be the best thing to have. In case you don't assign a patch to any group, you wouldn't even see anything related to global blocks. Nothing to select, nothing to maintain, it'd be as if the function didn't even exist.
Also, in case the default patch copying routine would automatically remove the patch out of the group (unless you'd check a certain "keep patch in group" box), you'd never run into any issues of accidentally altering some precious settings because you're fooling around with that copied patch (which is exactly what happened to me on the GT).
It'd also allow you to use as many global blocks as you want (sure, there could be some kinda limit such as 1000 or whatever), they would never clog up any menus.

I'm sure there's several ways to skin this cat, I also wouldn't happen to know whether there's yet some better solutions than groups (let alone I wouldn't know how things would actually be realized using a group based approach, I'm neither a programmer nor UI designer), but the issues I've mentioned above are pretty real in my book and should better be adressed straight from the start.

 

[laxu]

My main gripe would defenitely be to avoid anything that could end up in users doing tweaks to patches accidentally just because they've forgotten to deactivate certain global blocks.

Just needs the proper indicators. Like a big

YA TRYIN TO ADJUST DEM GLOBAL SETTINGS OR NAWT?!

1) I would not like being limited by the overall number of global blocks - for instance, I'm actually running into the Boss limitation of 10 presets per global block only for the parametric EQ because my idea was to have one global EQ per each Tonex One preset I may ever use (fwiw, this approach is working extremely well), and with four slots already used up (two acoustic settings, two lead leveling settings), I've only got 6 left. Not good.

I think you will run into this no matter what. Global blocks require some memory to store, and manufacturers will decide how much is ok to dedicate for that.

2) I fear one could end up with an enormous amount of these global block presets - and you'd really never know when it was safe to delete any of them. Unlike there was a kind of managing system, informing you about a) whether a global block preset is used, b) how many patches are using it and c) which patches they are. Again, I'm already running into issues with the GT's way of doing things as there's some global block presets where I simply don't know whether they're still in use in some banks. Now, I started documenting things ever since I was running into that, but it shouldn't be required doing such things.
Adding any kind of managment system however might be a lot more of a programming issue than tackling the entire thing in a different way straight from the start. And it might still not help the user much, simply because you might never want to delete any global blocks.

Yeah the lack of visibility is a huge issue with all the current implementations.

I'm sure there's several ways to skin this cat, I also wouldn't happen to know whether there's yet some better solutions than groups (let alone I wouldn't know how things would actually be realized using a group based approach, I'm neither a programmer nor UI designer), but the issues I've mentioned above are pretty real in my book and should better be adressed straight from the start.

It's always a challenge to make it something that people will actually use because it's easy enough, and something that advanced users will find is sufficient.

Technically global blocks are just a question of "do I save/load my settings from the preset, or from the global block settings?". Just two different places, it's really the management that is the real challenge.

If I were a modeler maker, I'd probably introduce global block support gradually. Like add amp/cab only support first because that's the #1 usecase.

 

[ian_dissonance]

There’s always going to be some limitation, I think. An unlimited number of global blocks plus whole separate bank/list just for the presets that have them seems like it would start messing with the normal setlist/preset organization. Just a little colored ball at the corner of a block icon to let you know what in your preset is global would be enough for me when I’m editing, but I think when you start getting into more than a handful of performance presets and they all have different global blocks there wouldn’t be much of an elegant way to organize it.

 

[JiveTurkey]

There’s always going to be some limitation, I think. An unlimited number of global blocks plus whole separate bank/list just for the presets that have them seems like it would start messing with the normal setlist/preset organization. Just a little colored ball at the corner of a block icon to let you know what in your preset is global would be enough for me when I’m editing, but I think when you start getting into more than a handful of performance presets and they all have different global blocks there wouldn’t be much of an elegant way to organize it.

The minute something like this that is supposed to be a problem solver becomes cumbersome or difficult to understand how it works when you use it is the minute I dump and not waste my time.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Just needs the proper indicators. Like a big

YA TRYIN TO ADJUST DEM GLOBAL SETTINGS OR NAWT?!

When exactly are these supposed to pop up? When adjusting anything? That'd be completely inacceptable for me.

I think you will run into this no matter what. Global blocks require some memory to store, and manufacturers will decide how much is ok to dedicate for that.

Sure. But seriously, it won't be much. In fact, it's stored within a patch's settings anyway, just that different patches are linked.

An unlimited number of global blocks plus whole separate bank/list just for the presets that have them

Nah - global blocks could easily be exclusive to setlists. Problem solved.
When you think about it, all scenarios in which global blocks would make the most sense are live playing related. Hence you have your setlist or a bank of patches anyway.

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Also, let's try to get real: We're not talking about gazillions of global block settings that needed to be saved somehow (visible or behind the scenes).
For any regular live bank (or setlist, whatever), I would want, say, 2 amps to be global, maybe 2-3 stomp boxes, a main delay and reverb, a compressor and an EQ. Add whatever else and we'd be at 10, maybe 12. These would be absolutely sufficient to adjust things on the fly to accomodate any musical/venue situation (yes, I know that I said I'm using up 10 just for the EQ on the GT, but that's only because of the way I organize Tonex One patches).
Then let's say I needed the same amount of global blocks for 4 different projects. We'd then be at 50 global block settings total. Peanuts for any up to date digital device.

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Then, as far as working with these blocks goes, here's what I could do with (we're assuming they're tied to setlists already):
Call up one patch, select, say, an amp, tag it as global. Call up the next patch and the amp tagged as global would show up in the target patch's amp block type selection menu. Select it, done.
As with any patch creation session, it'd obviously make a lot of sense to slap a master patch together in the first place and then just copy that. But that's really just the same as you'd do (or not do...) with any number of patches to be prepared for a gig. Adding global blocks the way described above would add a few seconds and that was it.

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The minute something like this that is supposed to be a problem solver becomes cumbersome or difficult to understand how it works when you use it is the minute I dump and not waste my time.

Well, in that case I suggest you don't listen to ian's suggestions (hrrhrr...) because he actually kinda likes the Boss way of doing these things. And you'd hate it with a passion.

 

[ian_dissonance]

The only thing that’s “bad” about the GT-1000 way is how they look in the editor. I kind of use the slot numbers as stompbox setlists, so each group of presets shares a slot # for each block. I rarely need two as anything else is going to be a per-preset wildcard.

 

[Sascha Franck]

The only thing that’s “bad” about the GT-1000 way is how they look in the editor.

I think it's completely messed up. Starting with a preset list is ruining it already, not being able to see existing names when saving through the editor is just an epic UI design fail (but the same goes for their patch saving routine) and as said, never knowing whether your actions may affect whatever other patch is something both the Boss and FAS systems are badly suffering from.

 

[ian_dissonance]

I think it's completely messed up. Starting with a preset list is ruining it already, not being able to see existing names when saving through the editor is just an epic UI design fail (but the same goes for their patch saving routine) and as said, never knowing whether your actions may affect whatever other patch is something both the Boss and FAS systems are badly suffering from.

I’m not saying it’s perfect, but I haven’t found it nearly as difficult as you seem to. The editor UI is dumb, but other than an easy to see indicator in the block view of what blocks have globals, the rest of the organization doesn’t need to be super deep IMO. It’s okay to make people keep track of their own shit.

 

[Sascha Franck]

One question to those experienced with the Kemper's "lock" function, it says this:

Use the lock function to prevent a section or a module from being changed when you switch Rigs. To lock or unlock individual modules, press their respective buttons while holding the LOCK button. Essentially, you can think of a locked module as being "global”

So, let's assume I'd lock an amp, would I then only be able to use that single amp all throughout? Or would I be able to lock one amp for, say, 3 patches in a bank and another one for 2 patches? If it was always only one amp, that'd make no sense for my use cases. Anyone knows how this exactly works?


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