Fractal Talk

[DrewJD82]

Next comment on socialists gets a 2-day vacation.

For fuck's sake.

 

[Blix]

As a rig builder I'm sure Dave has built many modelling only rigs as well, It could be he's referring more to the visceral experience of standing in front of a huge rig with multiple 4x12's vs a modelling rig with a set of earplugs and a wedge to two at best.

 

[Dimiguitar]

As a rig builder I'm sure Dave has built many modelling only rigs as well, It could be he's referring more to the visceral experience of standing in front of a huge rig with multiple 4x12's vs a modelling rig with a set of earplugs and a wedge to two at best.

I've seen him allude to that. But certainly that's a very different situation from, let's say, thinking amp sims are way inaccurate when the monitoring is the same.

I would like to see a conversation between someone like Cliff from fractal or another such figure and a reputable tube amp builder. You would imagine claims to be narrowed down further if there's a healthy back and forth.

But I would hope it doesn't result to "you make money from this, so", rather focusing on the substance.

 

[ejecta]

As a rig builder I'm sure Dave has built many modelling only rigs as well, It could be he's referring more to the visceral experience of standing in front of a huge rig with multiple 4x12's vs a modelling rig with a set of earplugs and a wedge to two at best.

That visceral experience can be also had with a Fender Deluxe Reverb IME. But yeah… that’s what I’ve understood from him and others who prefer an amp say for the most part. I just think saying it’s all about money is lame. I’m sure it’s involved in some way but you can’t say that’s the only reason or the main one for certain.

 

[deathbyguitar]

In other news, I had a dream last night that Cliff dropped a beta for firmware version 40, just skipping 12 version numbers like it ain't no thang. I've lost count of how many Fractal related dreams I've had over the years.

Edit: just now remembering the dream I had where I was with fractal at NAMM (which they would never go to) and Cliff fired me for something on the spot.

 

[la szum]

Like I said to him last year, "Stop bitching about it and provide something for those of us who love both tube amps and modeling. There's a gaping hole in the power amp space you could easily fill" and that's when he said he was working on something with that in mind, but it's going to be small. That was about 2 years ago.

I believe that was in the thread where there was a video of Big Wreck playing Fractal's into the Returns of their Fortin and Suhr heads and into 4x12's where everyone was commenting on how great they sounded despite the modeler use (it's certainly a tube-amp minded FB group) right up until Dave came in to say "They'd sound better with real amps".....IDGAF what Ian Thornley is playing through, he's going to sound better than anyone else in a 1000 mile radius. That's not that far removed than telling EJ he'd sound better playing on gear he didn't pick for himself. That's shit I expect from the TGP crowd.

Dave Friedman simply does not know better than Ian Thronley. Full stop.

Dave Friedman also does not know better than you or I.

 

[la szum]

The analog amp industry is definitely threatened by digital.

I tried selling one of my tube amps to local shops and they all told me the same thing. They can't move amp heads anymore with digital becoming more prevalent. None of them would take my amp because they didn't think they could sell it.

That's exactly how and why I bought a Mesa Roadster last year for $800.

He said a local shop offered him $450, and begrudgingly.

 

[JiveTurkey]

HE'S GOT A MOHAWK THOUGH?!?!?

 

[DrewJD82]

That's exactly how and why I bought a Mesa Roadster last year for $800.

He said a local shop offered him $450, and begrudgingly.

And how I got a Shiva for $1000, the EVH 5153 50-watt + EVH 2x12 for $875 and the Electra Dyne for $700.

 

[Tenebris]

I just sold a reasonably desirable amp for barely 30 per cent more than what I paid for it seven years ago, which is crazy given what everything was going for in like 2022. I caved and got an FM3 about eighteen months ago, did one project with it and realized "oh, okay, yes, the future finally got here", looked at my six tube amps and silent recording setup and started waving byebye to everything saleable. I'm down to two amps, one cab, and I still have a Torpedo Live because it's still potentially more useful than what it's selling for.

 

[ejecta]

Other factors can also be at play in that the guitar gear market as whole is seeing a significant softening due people’s priorities changing and the flood of gear that hit the market during the C years of people buying. I’ve heard pedal builders, guitar builders, store owners all saying it. Not surprising the used amp prices are falling because they were inflated to begin with and yes the influx of other options to get guitar tones as in digital and other options like preamp pedals play a part as well.

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

I'm assuming you're not a regular viewer of ToneTalk, he doesn't really leave any room for ambiguity in regard to his thoughts on modelers. The reason I find it shitty is because he's the biggest known rig-guy/amp builder with a public profile and where people go for questions about gear, that aspect of him is part of his whole persona and he's a gatekeeper when it comes to modeling. This is where "opinions" are stated as facts and his status gives those "opinions" more credence. "rolling the volume knob down on a modeler doesn't do anything" isn't stating anything as an opinion.

I'm not effected personally, I'm not the type that needs to ask Dave gear questions to figure my purchases out, but based off the general questions on ToneTalk, it's a lot of intermediate players just stepping into the pro gear level and even if a modeler IS the best option for their needs, it won't be suggested until after it's been ridiculed and caveats are added.

Him discussing his IR-X pedals-

Ah that's right, I can't embed livestreams. It's the Richie Kotzen episode from last week.
Based off this, no modeler has been capable of dynamics until Dave's pedals came along. He's quick to recover from saying "the best of both worlds" with a grimmace and "...if you have to". And more fuckin' volume knob nonsense!

He's capable of sharing his opinion of things he doesn't particularly dig, IE- high gain amps like Mesa's or Diezel's, pedals, speakers, etc without shitting on them. But when it comes to modeling he'll find every avenue to shit on it and put it down.

I had another ToneTalk I was going to embed where they're talking about going direct with a modeler and right out of the gate, he scoffs and says "Terrible", so you're correct, he doesn't think they're "bad", he thinks they're terrible. It's the Ryan Williams episode. They go through 20 minutes of talking about mixing in the box and how plugins can now replicate the hardware where he can mix/remix albums for STP or Slash and get exactly what he always could with analog gear, then the topic turns to digital guitar gear and the gate closes and the hard line is drawn, digital guitar gear can't cut it.

Dude, I guess you haven’t spent much time with amp designers?
They’re literally like singers. Thou shall not love any one but me.

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

In other news, I had a dream last night that Cliff dropped a beta for firmware version 40, just skipping 12 version numbers like it ain't no thang. I've lost count of how many Fractal related dreams I've had over the years.

Edit: just now remembering the dream I had where I was with fractal at NAMM (which they would never go to) and Cliff fired me for something on the spot.

Which they wouldn’t go to again more likely.
Cause they used to have a room in the Convention Center Marriott where they demo’d gear.

 

[la szum]

Dude, I guess you haven’t spent much time with amp designers?
They’re literally like singers. Thou shall not love any one but me.

Haha!

I wonder if it's even more twistedly ironic than that, when you consider most of their lyrics
are plagiarized from others. Mostly.

 

[ucnick]

Like I said to him last year, "Stop bitching about it and provide something for those of us who love both tube amps and modeling. There's a gaping hole in the power amp space you could easily fill" and that's when he said he was working on something with that in mind, but it's going to be small. That was about 2 years ago.

I believe that was in the thread where there was a video of Big Wreck playing Fractal's into the Returns of their Fortin and Suhr heads and into 4x12's where everyone was commenting on how great they sounded despite the modeler use (it's certainly a tube-amp minded FB group) right up until Dave came in to say "They'd sound better with real amps".....IDGAF what Ian Thornley is playing through, he's going to sound better than anyone else in a 1000 mile radius. That's not that far removed than telling EJ he'd sound better playing on gear he didn't pick for himself. That's shit I expect from the TGP crowd.

I have his PS-100 and it works great with my Fractals, probably use it for a gig next week. But regardless of amp type, I cannot understand his contention that modelers lack dynamics. Not at all what I experience with Fractals is all I can say.

 

[Frodebro]

I have his PS-100 and it works great with my Fractals, probably use it for a gig next week. But regardless of amp type, I cannot understand his contention that modelers lack dynamics. Not at all what I experience with Fractals is all I can say.

A modeler can actually be tweaked to have MORE dynamics than the amp it models.

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

Dave owns a company that builds tube amps. That’s his bread & butter, the roof over his head, and his retirement fund. It makes perfect sense that he has a bias against modeling.

And before that he owned a company (Tone Merchants) that sold all kinds of stuff like Fractal, an before that making pedal boards and racks at another company he owns (Rack Systems)
And once upon a time he did cartage for Brauer.

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

A modeler can actually be tweaked to have MORE dynamics than the amp it models.

And if he wants to keep his opinion on repeat how’s that an issue.
I simply don’t watch guys on YT, and no matter how much they’re gear influencers now, I remember 35+ years ago when Brauer did my storage and cartage and he worked for him.
Which was where Reinhold soldered Marshall mods in the back room before the Bogner Fish was a thing.

Point is when you’re part of the LA Studio scene this long you sure AF get to have an opinion. Irregardless if I disagree.
So yeah Dave gets a pass.

Also, I prefer the sound of my Fryette into its IRs, but use the analog speaker sim, because no matter how dynamic you think you can make a modeller it will will different.
Same reason I prefer the MkV:25 direct with its running it in the loop of the Fryette.

Yet, I still use modellers and profiles.
And yes I totally get why Friedman would claim he can do stuff mixing in the box he couldn’t without analog.
I can get killing tones with digi boxes.

But hands on strings I want the immediacy of an acoustic guitar.
Do I want it enough to forego convenience? Unlikely.

Let’s see how that Soldano X88 fares into the Fryette and then we see.

 

[- ★ - BROCKSTAR - ★ -]

Well i think the fix is.... Less dave watching and more playing!

 

[James Freeman]

Friedman built his entire career on cloning Marshalls and their infamous mods with minor variations, so in my personal opinion he has zero right to complain that digital modeling is eating his lunch.
Also, he did not reinvent the wheel by adding a snubber cap to a plate resistors to make a shitty brown tone; century old tube amp voicing methods are written in century old books.
Also also, his Wah sucks, so that's that.