Fractal Talk

[Mongillo19]

Again what about his opinion of modelers such big deal?

I mean, nothing. But it just seems like it's an opinion based off false information.

Regardless, I don't care

 

[ejecta]

I mean, nothing. But it just seems like it's an opinion based off false information.

Regardless, I don't care

I find what people think about this subject interesting so that’s why I talk about it… other than that I dont care either.

That said what false info is he buying into?
Actually if IIRC Dave has worked with Fractal on modeling his amps for the Fractal line. He even has plugins of his amps for DAWs. That doesn’t sound like someone who hates modeling or thinks it’s all bad .

 

[- ★ - BROCKSTAR - ★ -]

I don't even know who this dave person we're discussing is, i don't think?

 

[Mongillo19]

I don't even know who this dave person we're discussing is, i don't think?

Owner/amp maker of Friedman amps

 

[DrewJD82]

See I don’t see him “hating” modeling or thinks it’s “bad.” He definitely prefers amps. Form what I’ve gathered from his online presence all the way when I started being aware of him back on Rig Talk is that to me and what I hear he doesn’t buy into the idea that playing a modeler is the same as playing a tube amps rig like some claim. I don’t see that as hate. I see that as an opinion that to has validity. In fact he says that modelers do serve a great purpose for the right situation.

Look I’m no Dave fanboy. I don’t like any of his amps. I like only a couple of his pedals. You couldn’t give me one his amps. It makes me think his beloved 50 watt he bases his “sound” isn’t what I think a good Marshall sounds like. His mileage obviously varies. He would greatly disagree with me. I wouldn’t take any of that as hate.

Which is it’s just his ears and opinion. Again what about his opinion of modelers such a big deal?

The thing that irritates me the most about him and his personality is his more than noticeable name dropping in an interview with others who have nothing to with who he’s dropping and at times he over talks the guests bad. That to me is the most irritating about his show.

I'm assuming you're not a regular viewer of ToneTalk, he doesn't really leave any room for ambiguity in regard to his thoughts on modelers. The reason I find it shitty is because he's the biggest known rig-guy/amp builder with a public profile and where people go for questions about gear, that aspect of him is part of his whole persona and he's a gatekeeper when it comes to modeling. This is where "opinions" are stated as facts and his status gives those "opinions" more credence. "rolling the volume knob down on a modeler doesn't do anything" isn't stating anything as an opinion.

I'm not effected personally, I'm not the type that needs to ask Dave gear questions to figure my purchases out, but based off the general questions on ToneTalk, it's a lot of intermediate players just stepping into the pro gear level and even if a modeler IS the best option for their needs, it won't be suggested until after it's been ridiculed and caveats are added.

Him discussing his IR-X pedals-

Ah that's right, I can't embed livestreams. It's the Richie Kotzen episode from last week.
Based off this, no modeler has been capable of dynamics until Dave's pedals came along. He's quick to recover from saying "the best of both worlds" with a grimmace and "...if you have to". And more fuckin' volume knob nonsense!

He's capable of sharing his opinion of things he doesn't particularly dig, IE- high gain amps like Mesa's or Diezel's, pedals, speakers, etc without shitting on them. But when it comes to modeling he'll find every avenue to shit on it and put it down.

I had another ToneTalk I was going to embed where they're talking about going direct with a modeler and right out of the gate, he scoffs and says "Terrible", so you're correct, he doesn't think they're "bad", he thinks they're terrible. It's the Ryan Williams episode. They go through 20 minutes of talking about mixing in the box and how plugins can now replicate the hardware where he can mix/remix albums for STP or Slash and get exactly what he always could with analog gear, then the topic turns to digital guitar gear and the gate closes and the hard line is drawn, digital guitar gear can't cut it.

 

[Orvillain]

Out of genuine curiosity why do some of you guys think if Dave doesn’t know it already (I doubt this) but say it’s true that if he learned more effort than he’s aware of is put into modeling… that would be where he would start liking modeling?

Could you rephrase that in English pleaz?

 

[Frodebro]

Dave owns a company that builds tube amps. That’s his bread & butter, the roof over his head, and his retirement fund. It makes perfect sense that he has a bias against modeling.

 

[ejecta]

I'm assuming you're not a regular viewer of ToneTalk, he doesn't really leave any room for ambiguity in regard to his thoughts on modelers. The reason I find it shitty is because he's the biggest known rig-guy/amp builder with a public profile and where people go for questions about gear, that aspect of him is part of his whole persona and he's a gatekeeper when it comes to modeling. This is where "opinions" are stated as facts and his status gives those "opinions" more credence. "rolling the volume knob down on a modeler doesn't do anything" isn't stating anything as an opinion.

I'm not effected personally, I'm not the type that needs to ask Dave gear questions to figure my purchases out, but based off the general questions on ToneTalk, it's a lot of intermediate players just stepping into the pro gear level and even if a modeler IS the best option for their needs, it won't be suggested until after it's been ridiculed and caveats are added.

Him discussing his IR-X pedals-

Ah that's right, I can't embed livestreams. It's the Richie Kotzen episode from last week.
Based off this, no modeler has been capable of dynamics until Dave's pedals came along. He's quick to recover from saying "the best of both worlds" with a grimmace and "...if you have to". And more fuckin' volume knob nonsense!

He's capable of sharing his opinion of things he doesn't particularly dig, IE- high gain amps like Mesa's or Diezel's, pedals, speakers, etc without shitting on them. But when it comes to modeling he'll find every avenue to shit on it and put it down.

I had another ToneTalk I was going to embed where they're talking about going direct with a modeler and right out of the gate, he scoffs and says "Terrible", so you're correct, he doesn't think they're "bad", he thinks they're terrible. It's the Ryan Williams episode. They go through 20 minutes of talking about mixing in the box and how plugins can now replicate the hardware where he can mix/remix albums for STP or Slash and get exactly what he always could with analog gear, then the topic turns to digital guitar gear and the gate closes and the hard line is drawn, digital guitar gear can't cut it.

Yeah I guess I just don’t see him as some gate keeper or stating anything but an opinion. I’ve seen pretty much all his shows. I don’t see him as doing it intentionally as in speaking anything that is an opinion as is indeed fact when it comes to his thoughts on modelers. He speaks about what he heard and what others do as well. But that’s just subjective things. Not facts and he knows it. He has his opinion and that’s all I see it as. See things how you wish. Thanks for taking the time to make a detailed reply. I see some things as you and some I don’t. That’s pretty normal with most people.

 

[DrewJD82]

Dave owns a company that builds tube amps. That’s his bread & butter, the roof over his head, and his retirement fund. It makes perfect sense that he has a bias against modeling.

Like I said to him last year, "Stop bitching about it and provide something for those of us who love both tube amps and modeling. There's a gaping hole in the power amp space you could easily fill" and that's when he said he was working on something with that in mind, but it's going to be small. That was about 2 years ago.

I believe that was in the thread where there was a video of Big Wreck playing Fractal's into the Returns of their Fortin and Suhr heads and into 4x12's where everyone was commenting on how great they sounded despite the modeler use (it's certainly a tube-amp minded FB group) right up until Dave came in to say "They'd sound better with real amps".....IDGAF what Ian Thornley is playing through, he's going to sound better than anyone else in a 1000 mile radius. That's not that far removed than telling EJ he'd sound better playing on gear he didn't pick for himself. That's shit I expect from the TGP crowd.

 

[LCW]

I can’t comment on Dave’s opinion of modelers nor do I really care. I still like Tone Talk.

But… this thing FUCKS!!!

 

[Alex Kenivel]

In a Pre-IR-X Tone Talk episode, Dave had praised the HX Placater model. He seems wishy-washy on the subject, maybe he's just starting to come around.

 

[FractalAudio]

It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.

 

[ejecta]

It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.

Didn’t Dave work with you on what he does with his amps and gave you permission to use the names in your units a good while ago? He’s not done that with any other hardware modeler that I’ve seen. That’s kinda weird to hear you talk about him like that when he obviously did you a favor.

Anyway I highly doubt his business is threatened that much by modelers or that he’s that willfully ignorant. I’m sure to some degree he has a money bias but I couldn’t tell you to what level and that said, don’t we all… even you? To say that’s the main or only reason could be true and could not. He may just not like the experience of playing modelers vs amps not based on a money motive. Laying your motive onto someone without him claiming his motives personally are what you saying they are is a claim that is weak.

Also the same could be said about modeler companies who ignore the differences players clearly experience. Easy to apply motive without evidence when the very same bias is possible on both sides. It is IMHO again just a weak argument.

Lastly I’ve bought more amps since using modelers than ever and I bought ones I thought were the better sounding ones in modelers and they were for the most part great and even better than the model. Modelers can be argued in a lot of instances to help sell amps. I’m sure Dave is also aware of this because I’ve heard him say similar. So yeah IME I doubt modelers are hurting amps to the degree where someone as clearly successful as Dave has to willfully lie and try and sell people on that through some small podcast perpetuating a lie just to keep his business afloat.

But you are obviously free to have your opinion just like Dave.

 

[Mongillo19]

Anyway I highly doubt his business is threatened that much by modelers or that he’s that willfully ignorant.

The analog amp industry is definitely threatened by digital.

I tried selling one of my tube amps to local shops and they all told me the same thing. They can't move amp heads anymore with digital becoming more prevalent. None of them would take my amp because they didn't think they could sell it.

 

[ejecta]

The analog amp industry is definitely threatened by digital.

I tried selling one of my tube amps to local shops and they all told me the same thing. They can't move amp heads anymore with digital becoming more prevalent. None of them would take my amp because they didn't think they could sell it.

Valid point but also all gear is in a slump and when a local stop won’t ship most stuff that’s heavy due to costs of shipping you limit your customer base…. so sure amps may not move as well in that context.

Anyway not saying modeling hasn’t impacted the amp market. It clearly has but I don’t think it’s to the degree to have to come up with some Dave Friedman conspiracy campaign to single handedly take down the modeler market.

 

[Dimiguitar]

It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.

Can't the same be said for you? It'll apply to people in different degrees but nonetheless.

 

[Mongillo19]

Can't the same be said for you? It'll apply to people in different degrees but nonetheless.

I feel like leaders in digital gear need to have a healthy respect for analog gear. The idea is to make your digital gear sound like those analog devices.

So in that, you know the analog gear is awesome.

 

[unix-guy]

Can't the same be said for you? It'll apply to people in different degrees but nonetheless.

He has to understand tube amps (in extreme detail) to make a modeler work accurately, so, no it doesn't apply to him in this scenario.

 

[Dimiguitar]

I feel like leaders in digital gear need to have a healthy respect for analog gear. The idea is to make your digital gear sound like those analog devices.

So in that, you know the analog gear is awesome.

It's a good point, but there may also be the incentive to exaggerate how good your digital gear is vs the analog gear.

PS: I use fm3 most of the time and get great results.

 

[Dimiguitar]

He has to understand tube amps (in extreme detail) to make a modeler work accurately, so, no it doesn't apply to him in this scenario.

I Think that makes sense.