E-drums: could they be a common thing for small bands gigs?

[DrewJD82]

, however blanket statements that eDrums can't be used live is simply BS, and way behind the times and current technology.

They certainly can be used in a live setting, they just sound like shit.

I’m starting to think this is a bunch of guitarists talking about drums as if they’ve never played them longer than 5 minutes….

Gee, I wonder why they didn’t demo that kit in a live setting? Couldn’t possibly be the same reason no one has posted a video of an e-kit sounding great in a live setting yet, could it? For as many times as it’s been claimed they can sound great and the people putting that forth has supposedly experienced it themselves, you’d think a single shred of evidence would exist of it.

What skills, specifically, does a drummer require to make an e-kit sound good live?

How to appropriately wrap a cast around their arm so no one questions why they’re hitting the drums like their wrist is broken? Because the only thing that’s going to allow an e-kit to NOT sound like an e-kit live is to hit the things with as little force as possible because the second they reach that highest velocity more than once, it sounds like an e-kit. That might work for jazz or Barry Manilow tunes, but that ain’t going to cut it in a rock/metal band.

 

[deathbyguitar]

Thanks for sharing! It takes some guts to share music on the interwebs today, especially in a contentious thread.

Are you all consistently gigging with the electronic kit setup or was this more of a one-off? Just curious how it’s been for you. We rehearse weekly with SD3 but gigs are typically acoustic kits. We keep kicking around trying something very similar to what you’re doing in that video.

Overall, while I’m sure the experience in the room is quite a bit different from having a loud drummer on an acoustic kits, I thought the end result was actually quite pleasing. It sounded punchy and nicely balanced, and didn’t seem like the room was getting crushed with volume.

There’s a local bar band here (covers) that gigs with an ekit and they usually sound pretty good too.

FWIW - if you’re doing this a lot you might want to invest in SD3. You’ll get more velocity layers and control over your response curves. That can make some pretty significant contributions to helping things feel and sound a little closer to natural…or as far as the current tech gets.

I was using SD3 in this instance along with the Metal Machine EZX. I actually have the Metal Machinery SDX but I haven't really touched it since getting it on sale way back when. But to answer your question, that has played a decent amount of gigs over the years and I've only ever used E-kits going in to Superior Drummer. I'm simply not willing to use an acoustic kit when Toontrack stuff sounds that good. But also, that band relies on using my Axe-FX III for guitar and bass tones so that means I have to bring that in addition to whatever drums I'm playing. So the the fact that I'm able to get away with just lugging around a sample pad and some pedals saves me from needing a larger vehicle.

 

[DrewJD82]

I think this is a halfway decent example although I fully expect to get ripped to shreds for posting this LOL



That's me playing a Yamaha DTX Multi 12 as a MIDI controller. Drum samples are all Metal Machine EZX. Drums, both guitars and bass were mixed through my Axe-FX going into my own PA speakers and subwoofer. Used house mics and House PA for vocals which was a mistake. But I remember the overall instrumental balance and punchiness in the room feeling really good at the time. Everything was loud enough to have a good impact but not so loud that people's ears were being shredded. This was before I put everything in a rolling shallow rack with an IEM system and mixer

I’m not going to rip you to shreds, but this is more backing up my stance that e-drums aren’t a viable replacement for an acoustic kit because the second you touch the kick drum it’s screaming “I’M AN E-KIT” through the PA and continues to do so each time you hit it. The snare almost works, but the second you do a roll on it, it’s e-kit town.

Not a knock against you in any way, it’s an e-kit, it’s going to sound like an e-kit.

 

[EOengineer]

What skills, specifically, does a drummer require to make an e-kit sound good live?

I’ve had lengthy conversations with our drummer about his experience acclimating to our rehearsal setup. I’m not sure I could point towards a skill he possesses that’s made it work for him. It definitely took him a couple months of weekly practice to get his bearings, and in some ways the work is ongoing.

It wasn’t just an adjustment from his side either. We had several multi hour sessions experimenting with velocity curves both in SD3 and EDrumin. He does a lot of rim work ( ) on the snare and toms, some intricate cymbal work, lots of ghost notes, etc. We had to stumble through figuring all that stuff out, finding ways to translate it to the kit, etc.

Despite my comments earlier in the thread, electronic drumming is a big investment in time and energy, and it’s not for everyone. It’s fun for us because we enjoy trying to push the technology, and for the music we play we can largely make it work.

I do hope we can eventually take it live, but my honest opinion is that e-drums are probably another generation or two away from getting there technologically speaking. I think there a lot of very interesting options an e-kit opens for a band though, especially if we are able to eventually bridge that gap.

FWIW - re: the machine-gunning you’re describing, we’ve largely been able to mitigate those issues by expanding the round robin pool in SD3’s settings and making sure the drums are dialed in with sensitivity settings that don’t automatically pin everything to 127. Positional sensing also helps, but that usually requires center cone triggers. Those introduce their own set of challenges with hot spotting - which also contributes to machine gunning.

It’s a whole thing.

 

[DrewJD82]

I’ve had lengthy conversations with our drummer about his experience acclimating to our rehearsal setup. I’m not sure I could point towards a skill he possesses that’s made it work for him. It definitely took him a couple months of weekly practice to get his bearings, and in some ways the work is ongoing.

It wasn’t just an adjustment from his side either. We had several multi hour sessions experimenting with velocity curves both in SD3 and EDrumin. He does a lot of rim work ( ) on the snare and toms, some intricate cymbal work, lots of ghost notes, etc. We had to stumble through figuring all that stuff out, finding ways to translate it to the kit, etc.

Despite my comments earlier in the thread, electronic drumming is a big investment in time and energy, and it’s not for everyone. It’s fun for us because we enjoy trying to push the technology, and for the music we play we can largely make it work.

I do hope we can eventually take it live, but my honest opinion is that e-drums are probably another generation or two away from getting there technologically speaking. I think there a lot of very interesting options an e-kit opens for a band though, especially if we are able to eventually bridge that gap.

FWIW - re: the machine-gunning you’re describing, we’ve largely been able to mitigate those issues by expanding the round robin pool in SD3’s settings and making sure the drums are dialed in with sensitivity settings that don’t automatically pin everything to 127. Positional sensing also helps, but that usually requires center cone triggers. Those introduce their own set of challenges with hot spotting - which also contributes to machine gunning.

It’s a whole thing.

This is the kind of post I’ve been waiting for the whole thread; it’s obvious you’re not just a guitar player dismissing the differences between the two types of kits due to a lack of experience with drums. I definitely agree they’re not far away from being there and it’ll get there sooner than later.

The humanizing effect in SD3 is decent, but I haven’t heard or played an e-kit yet that behaves the same way, even if it’s feeding SD3, it’s like you have to exaggerate the hell out of everything to even try to get within the dynamic range of a real kit.

 

[[Nathan]]

electronic drumming is a big investment in time and energy, and it’s not for everyone. It’s fun for us because we enjoy trying to push the technology, and for the music we play we can largely make it work.

my honest opinion is that e-drums are probably another generation or two away from getting there technologically speaking.

It’s a whole thing.

Great breakdown of your first hand experience. As I expected (and most people in thread I imagine), it’s still at a point where the realistically priced kits (under $4000usd) still arent plug and play set and forget….. “it’s a whole thing” is like the perfect description

 

[metropolis_4]

Spoken like a guy who has never toured, never mixed a live band in pro environments, and never played the 1500 - 3000 seat theaters in most cities and towns across the US/Canada and EU anyways, many of which were acoustically designed for spoken word and acoustic music, i.e not loud rock bands with gorilla drummers on acoustic kits.

What 3,000 seat venue hosting live rock bands was designed only for spoken word performances?

For some a proper rock drum sound comprises of compressors, gates, room sim and reverb, along with EQ's which is a PITA unless you travel with your own sound and crew (and it's still a PITA for them LOL!), which is why triggering samples is incredibly common place as all the FX processing is baked in.

Who is using a room sim on their drums for live shows?

 

[HotRats]

blanket statements that eDrums can't be used live is simply BS, and way behind the times and current technology.

No one here said you can't use an e-kit, though.

You can, some do it (I've played few shows we with our drummer on an e-kit) but when you do it you'll sound like a band with an e-kit.

Some might don't like it, you know.

 

[Orvillain]

I've worked in the industry and been around e-kits for 18 years. I've seen the stats. Electronic drumkits are not used on stages. They are a teaching and a production tool. Not a performance one.

 

[ChordInversion]

I like e-drums. With an asterisk. I think they are great as is for music that is composed with them in mind. They'll likely become more capable over time. You're not going to play Zeppelin's "Rock and Roll" live with them any time soon. But there's a lot of music for which they can work really well, and I've experienced that live. I can also say that when a band is setting up in a place where I didn't come for the music, e-drums are welcome sign (though I have experienced them being turned up way too loud in a restaurant, a phenomenon that confused me).

I actually think there's a lot of room for creativity in music that is less reliant on percussion in general. But I also know that there are entire genres of music that simply aren't going to work without some drums getting plain old banged on. For those, I think acoustics are going to be around for a good while, regardless of venue size.

 

[Orvillain]

For those who say e-kits solve all of these problems, I just have to wonder why two of my favourite drummers, Danny Carey and Jay Postones, aren't using full on-ekit setups. Danny uses hybrid technology, and Jay is the only acoustic instrument in Tesseract. Everything else is modeller based.

 

[HotRats]

though I have experienced them being turned up way too loud in a restaurant, a phenomenon that confused me

I've experienced that my self twice, once when I was on stage, another one I was in the crowd.

Both time I wondered why on earth there were e-drums (using acoustic sounds only!) on stage if PA was blasting at full volume.
I really don't get it and both experiences proved me that having an e-kit doesn't make a band sound quieter or better - magically.

An additional thought.....
since e-drums need a good monitoring system that cover all stage, otherwise is impossible to play, stage volume can easily became an issue if the band is not using in ears and that might be detrimental to the foh mix.
The mandatory monitoring system also makes things over complicated for most small stages where acoustic drums can be heard acoustically.

 

[EOengineer]

I was using SD3 in this instance along with the Metal Machine EZX. I actually have the Metal Machinery SDX but I haven't really touched it since getting it on sale way back when. But to answer your question, that has played a decent amount of gigs over the years and I've only ever used E-kits going in to Superior Drummer. I'm simply not willing to use an acoustic kit when Toontrack stuff sounds that good. But also, that band relies on using my Axe-FX III for guitar and bass tones so that means I have to bring that in addition to whatever drums I'm playing. So the the fact that I'm able to get away with just lugging around a sample pad and some pedals saves me from needing a larger vehicle.

Awesome - thanks for the additional details. I shouldn’t have assumed you were using EZDrummer just because you were using the EXZ. Sometimes I forget SD3 can run the EZX packages.

I would definitely recommend digging into the SDX you purchased, and there are a couple reasons why I say that.

EZX are 16 bit samples while SDX uses 24 bit. You’ll get better dynamic range out of the SDX than you will the EZX.

The SDX also gives you larger sample pools and more control over the gradients used. From a drum playing perspective, these 2 things alone can significantly impact the playing experience.

As Drew already pointed out, there are some “tells” in that video. While the changes I’m suggesting won’t make the setup sound 1-1 with an acoustic kit, it will likely provide a better experience for you as the drummer, and will help increase the realism a bit. You’ll also find a less obviously processed version of the kick drum in there.

YMMV.

Best of luck!

Great breakdown of your first hand experience. As I expected (and most people in thread I imagine), it’s still at a point where the realistically priced kits (under $4000usd) still arent plug and play set and forget….. “it’s a whole thing” is like the perfect description

TBH I don’t even think the $4k+ kits are plug and play options.

 

[Orvillain]

EZX are 16 bit samples while SDX uses 24 bit. You’ll get better dynamic range out of the SDX than you will the EZX.

That's not even the primary issue really. EZX's have faaaaaaaarrrr fewer velocity layers and round robin groups. You can really hear them machine-gunning quite a lot of the time. Doesn't stop me using them for demos, but I wouldn't use them for anything public facing - IMHO, YMMV, m2p, etc etc.

 

[la szum]

It's just people pretending to know more than they actually do. Standard forumer nonsense.

 

[la szum]

They certainly can be used in a live setting, they just sound like shit.

I’m starting to think this is a bunch of guitarists talking about drums as if they’ve never played them longer than 5 minutes….

Gee, I wonder why they didn’t demo that kit in a live setting? Couldn’t possibly be the same reason no one has posted a video of an e-kit sounding great in a live setting yet, could it? For as many times as it’s been claimed they can sound great and the people putting that forth has supposedly experienced it themselves, you’d think a single shred of evidence would exist of it.

What skills, specifically, does a drummer require to make an e-kit sound good live?

How to appropriately wrap a cast around their arm so no one questions why they’re hitting the drums like their wrist is broken? Because the only thing that’s going to allow an e-kit to NOT sound like an e-kit live is to hit the things with as little force as possible because the second they reach that highest velocity more than once, it sounds like an e-kit. That might work for jazz or Barry Manilow tunes, but that ain’t going to cut it in a rock/metal band.

 

[EOengineer]

That's not even the primary issue really. EZX's have faaaaaaaarrrr fewer velocity layers and round robin groups. You can really hear them machine-gunning quite a lot of the time. Doesn't stop me using them for demos, but I wouldn't use them for anything public facing - IMHO, YMMV, m2p, etc etc.

I agree with you. The next line of that post says the same thing, or at least intended to, but I may have unintentionally obfuscated it by not using the “velocity layers” term.

We started our little experiment with EZDrummer and quickly migrated up to SD3.

 

[la szum]

Seriously, I think absolutism is the issue. Always.






If someone uses something we don't like it doesn't mean
it absolutely sounds like shit all the time, or that it absolutely
doesn't sound like shit all the time.

Sounding like shit can be fun. ... or even nostalgiac. I've heard
as more bad and shitty sounding acoustic kits than I have e-kits.

I don't believe that shitty sounds are all that precious about where they reside.
They can come in all the guises.


Haven't triggered/sampled on kicks been used for multiple decades at this

point---both live and in the studio. That is not new news to me. Wasn't it also

seen as a massive improvement over purely acoustic/Mic'd kicks??



I guess I see no problem with people making music playing whatever
works for them in the context they have to work within. It's the territorial
pissing that is probably far more problematic in the long run.

 

[Orvillain]

Seriously, I think absolutism is the issue. Always.






If someone uses something we don't like it doesn't mean
it absolutely sounds like shit all the time, or that it absolutely
doesn't sound like shit all the time.

Sounding like shit can be fun. ... or even nostalgiac. I've heard
as more bad and shitty sounding acoustic kits than I have e-kits.

I don't believe that shitty sounds are all that precious about where they reside.
They can come in all the guises.


Haven't triggered/sampled on kicks been used for multiple decades at this

point---both live and in the studio. That is not new news to me. Wasn't it also

seen as a massive improvement over purely acoustic/Mic'd kicks??



I guess I see no problem with people making music playing whatever
works for them in the context they have to work within. It's the territorial
pissing that is probably far more problematic in the long run.

You take pills to 90's house piano. I have proof.

 

[la szum]