Does an amp make sense for what I'm describing?

Boudoir Guitar said:
Neither is playing at conversation volume by yourself at home, but it’s the best a lot of us can get.
Click to expand...
You can do that with a tube amp 🤷 OP said they haven't been wowed with modelers. I don't see why he shouldnt explore tube amps.

But anyway @Jarick id see if you can't swing an Astro. It seems to check all your boxes and you can run it through an audio interface into monitors or go through a cab. I personally think amps sit better in a mix without as much work. They also just have more presence and clarity to them. And for me, just the mindset of "this is the real thing" helps me enjoy it more.

Maybe look at open box or see about a place that does returns. You won't know until you try!
 
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Mongillo19 said:
@Rock Chalk When people talk about the annoying superiority vibe some fractal users give, it's people like you. You are your passive aggressive BS gets so old. Id PM you this but you don't seem to allow access. Feel free to PM me if you feel the need.

Or just laugh emote like you do whenever someone says give something other than fractal a try
Click to expand...
You're the one who started with the laugh emojis in this thread. You are so easily triggered by the mere suggestion of anything Fractal, I think you really have a problem...you might want to talk to somebody about that.
 
Mongillo19 said:
@Rock Chalk When people talk about the annoying superiority vibe some fractal users give, it's people like you. You are your passive aggressive BS gets so old. Id PM you this but you don't seem to allow access. Feel free to PM me if you feel the need.

Or just laugh emote like you do whenever someone says give something other than fractal a try


@Mongillo19 Now your PMing me telling me to go back to the Fractal Forum because I dare mentioned Fractal? Dude, you do have a problem.
 
Mongolian.png
 
Mongillo19 said:
You can do that with a tube amp 🤷 OP said they haven't been wowed with modelers. I don't see why he shouldnt explore tube amps.

But anyway @Jarick id see if you can't swing an Astro. It seems to check all your boxes and you can run it through an audio interface into monitors or go through a cab. I personally think amps sit better in a mix without as much work. They also just have more presence and clarity to them. And for me, just the mindset of "this is the real thing" helps me enjoy it more.

Maybe look at open box or see about a place that does returns. You won't know until you try!
Click to expand...
I think the issue wasn’t about whether Fractal (or any of the other modelers he’s used - which is all of them) is superior to a tube amp, but that at conversation levels whatever differences exist aren’t enough to go from “ho hum” to “WOW!”. Especially if the goal was to find a single amp/cab combo to cover Fender clean, plexi crunch, and “modern hi gain”.
 
Jarick said:
I've tried every modeler under the sun and spend more time trying to fix flaws than enjoying them. I've tried the Friedman IR-X too, as well as a low watt tube amp (Orange Rocker 15) and tons of pedals. I've upgraded my monitors, interface, tried a power amp and cab, tried ""FRFR"", etc.

So let's say I sell off a bunch of gear to fund something different. I know at some point I need a different cab because that's going to shape the overall EQ. But is there an amp rig that would make sense for the following use case:
  • Low volume, home use only...I'm talking conversation levels here
  • 3 channels preferred (Fender cleans, Plexi crunch, modern gain)
  • Series effects loop
  • Ability to run a direct out with no cab (built in reactive load, or no load needed, or potentially adding an external box)
  • Ability to switch channels via MIDI (may require another box)
Some ideas I've kicked around:
  • Soldano Astro 20 - top of the budget but seems like it would do everything I want and would kick all kinds of ass
  • Friedman JJ Junior - only two channels, but this has been my dream amp for years, although would need to add external reactive load
  • Bluguitar Amp1 - never tried one but seems intriguing? Mixed reviews but sometimes they are good?
  • Friedman IR-D - maybe a different voicing compared to the IR-X would be better through existing cabs?
  • Blackstar Amped 3 - don't shoot me but I honestly kinda like the Amped 1 as an amp better than the Orange Rocker 15!
  • ...something else?
Alternately, am I just nuts and modeling truly is the way to go in this situation? For example should I swap out the Orange cab for something bigger and warmer sounding at low levels to fight the harsh high end? Or throw something in the signal chain?
Click to expand...

I'd start from the cab, I mean a real cab not an "FRFR".
Find a cab/speaker combination you enjoy and then see what happens. An oversized or ported cab might be what you need for low level playing.

Put some duct tape in front of the dust cap (or try the other more refined solutions available) to tame the beaming.
 
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Jarick said:
I've tried every modeler under the sun and spend more time trying to fix flaws than enjoying them. I've tried the Friedman IR-X too, as well as a low watt tube amp (Orange Rocker 15) and tons of pedals. I've upgraded my monitors, interface, tried a power amp and cab, tried ""FRFR"", etc.

So let's say I sell off a bunch of gear to fund something different. I know at some point I need a different cab because that's going to shape the overall EQ. But is there an amp rig that would make sense for the following use case:
  • Low volume, home use only...I'm talking conversation levels here
  • 3 channels preferred (Fender cleans, Plexi crunch, modern gain)
  • Series effects loop
  • Ability to run a direct out with no cab (built in reactive load, or no load needed, or potentially adding an external box)
  • Ability to switch channels via MIDI (may require another box)
Some ideas I've kicked around:
  • Soldano Astro 20 - top of the budget but seems like it would do everything I want and would kick all kinds of ass
  • Friedman JJ Junior - only two channels, but this has been my dream amp for years, although would need to add external reactive load
  • Bluguitar Amp1 - never tried one but seems intriguing? Mixed reviews but sometimes they are good?
  • Friedman IR-D - maybe a different voicing compared to the IR-X would be better through existing cabs?
  • Blackstar Amped 3 - don't shoot me but I honestly kinda like the Amped 1 as an amp better than the Orange Rocker 15!
  • ...something else?
Alternately, am I just nuts and modeling truly is the way to go in this situation? For example should I swap out the Orange cab for something bigger and warmer sounding at low levels to fight the harsh high end? Or throw something in the signal chain?
Click to expand...
I have owned/tried most of the amps you're looking at, except the Astro (but I had a SLO 30).

They will all do what you want. The BluGuitar amps are very good indeed, even for live shows. The IR-D is definitely better than the X IMHO. Amped is not bad for the price.,but if you can find an used BluGuitar for the same cost I'd go with it.
JJ Jr is cool. A bit dark. I'd look into the Runt instead.

Consider budgeting for a Reactive Load, that really opens up what you can do with any amp. The Suhr IR is my favorite. I think that's a must have in your application.

Anything else? Sure I'd also suggest you check out:

Laney IRT Studio
Synergy 20/30w heads
EVH 5150 50w 6L6 (you can run them without a load and take a signal from the preamp out for IRs.
 
Hypotheses: modelers do what it says on the box, if that didn’t do it for you, it’s something else, not the modeler.
You have good quality monitors?

How does the room you play in sound? If it’s all carpet, wall paper and a lot of curtains, maybe try taking your amp to a room that’s more reflectieve to check if that’s a pivot point for you.

Maybe you don’t like fullrange/cabsimmed sound, and that orange cab didn’t do it for you?
Imo, cabdimensions & speakersurface are one of the most impactfull elements of your chain, if you are looking for a bigger sound at home, a small cab isnt gonna do it, especially not in a dead room.
Ime, at home, 2 small cabs in a stereo setup is the best option, and I would prioritize that over anything myself..SS/tubepower or analog/digital preamp, doesn’t matter to me at low volume once my cab setup is ok.

If your current amp has a loop, and you have time efx that can split to stereo…add whatever cheap combo with a loop (but decent cab/speaker.)

If I was to shop for an amp myself, id definitly go for the synergy 20.
But…I’m also 100% convinced, that with 2 half decent combos with efx loops, and a digital unit that is capabele of digital preamps instead of full models (either captures or modeled), you can get anything as good as any amp. Cab/speakers are the pivotpoints, and a wee bit of poweramp. (More impactfull at higher volumes)
 
Conversational levels?

Amp with a smaller cab or modeler with smaller monitors. The larger the cab or larger the monitors, the higher the volume you’ll need to drive them to combat Fletcher Munson IMO.

I’m running an FM3 through a set of IK iLoud Micros and it sounds great while sitting on the couch, watching TV at conversational levels. I have them on a tiny desk with a music stand that I use for practice that is adjacent to my couch.

If you don’t want to go the modeling route, grab a Yamaha THR. They sound outstanding at conversational levels and you can go wireless while you’re at it for maximum convenience.

Just an idea. My $0.02.
 
norminal said:
Amp with a smaller cab or modeler with smaller monitors. The larger the cab or larger the monitors, the higher the volume you’ll need to drive them to combat Fletcher Munson IMO.
Click to expand...
Imo the opposite, bigger cab = more low end, exactly what the curve shows you need more of at low volume.

To me it’s fine using supersmall speakers…I use a nux air 9/10 ;)…but if your looking for the best sound…that would not be my weapon of choice.
 
You know I'll recommend the BluGuitar Amp 1 Mercury Edition any day. It can be set down to whisper quiet levels and still sound half-decent. Pair it with the BluGuitar Fatcab 1x12 and it's a sweet sounding small rig. Due to the shared EQ it won't be perfect going from old school drive to modern high gain at the push of a button, but can work well enough. Treat it more like a clean/drive two channel amp with switchable voicings for the OD.

But your low volume requirement will always be the biggest issue. It doesn't matter if you are using a tube amp, pedals into clean tube amp, modeler, real guitar cab, "FRFR"...once the volume is too low, nothing is going to sound that great.

It's hard to say what "conversation volume" actually means to you, but I'm guessing this is something like <= 80 dB @ 1m. To me the "fun volume zone" with any real amp rig starts at about 85-90 dB @ 1m, and anything less is going to be a big compromise.

Tube amps will be a mixed bag whether you can control the volume down to <80 dB levels in the first place, and whether they will sound like a can of bees or "eh, I can work with this". I don't really love my Mesa Mark V if it's set very quiet and feel the BluGuitar does that better.

I've measured that good studio nearfield monitors with a digital modeler can be up to 10 dB less volume than a guitar cab blaring on the floor. Since you are sitting closer you don't have to turn them up as much to get a "fun loud" volume into your ears. So I think it's still the best solution when those higher 90+ dB volumes are not an option. Obviously the quality of said monitors will matter, and they still won't sound like a guitar cab in the room. I use a pair of big Genelec M040 monitors that have enough low end for even a standard tuned bass.

If you have any of the top modelers already, then it should be no trouble getting a great tone out of them. The only reason I have sold mine is usability and not really needing all they can do. There's comfort in limiting your options and having a simple "turn a few knobs" rig.
 
As for guitar cabs, I agree that more low end = sounds better at low volume playing on your own, but it is not a straightforward "just get a 4x12".

I currently own the following cabs, from smallest to biggest:
  • BluGuitar Nanocab 1x12.
  • BluGuitar Fatcab 1x12.
  • Mesa Mark V 1x12 combo. Open back. Mesa "Black Shadow" MC90.
  • Bluetone 4x10. 10" Greenbacks.
The BluGuitar cabs are both ported, closed back and have beam blockers. Each cab has a BluGuitar speaker tuned for that cab, that is a GB/V30 mix. The Nanocab is barely larger than the speaker inside so it lacks low end, you can really crank the bass knob on the BluGuitar with this one.

The Fatcab is the sweet spot. It's a great compact, portable cab for any Marshall style 50W amp. It sounds bigger than its size would suggest.

The Mark V combo sounds perceivedly the loudest because it's got a lot more high end and midrange emphasis. I tried taping a plastic jam jar lid in front of the 1x12 combo's speaker cone to test how a beam blocker would work on it, and it definitely helped avoid the harsh stuff in a good way.

The 4x10's 10" speakers are lower sensitivity, and there's beam blockers on the angled top speakers so it doesn't sound harsh even standing right in front of it.

I think it will heavily depend on the room too. Small room, things get perceivedly loud real quick.
 
I just picked up a ppc412 cab on the weekend. I ran the evh stealth 100 into it. The volume knob had to be moved from 0 to 0.2 like Indiana jones stealing a statue so the walls wouldn’t shake (sounded amazing)

I then ran the TMP into the return of the EVH and fired up a quick pedal chain with the stealth amp there (for maximum irony). This was already a lot easier to control because I could increase the volume in small increments from the TMP. Not a scientific A/B but the amp alone felt a few % better. They sounded pretty identical and I probably could have dialled the modeller in better, was just noodling and trying things out on first impressions. But the TMP was instantly more convenient because of the fine tuning of volume

I then ran the TMP into an orange pedal baby into the cab and did the same thing.

I was honestly stoked with all the sounds I got out of it and all things considered the pedal baby is the cheaper way to go. The amp by itself is obviously great but you’d want pedals and need to be touch sensitive on volume. It’s not always the most practical or straightforward just for the extra % awesomeness (especially when it’s just for playing at home)
 
Some extra thoughts:

I rolled through a few monitors to find some that I really like and settled on the IK Precision 5. They sound way bigger than the size indicates, enough that I sold my Yamaha HS8's after picking them up. I previously used (and have not yet sold) the Genelec 8020's so from a monitor standpoint I've taken that as far as it can go.

On my room, it could be treated better for sure but I built a bunch of acoustic panels, added a couch, and added a big rug. I played around extensively with monitor placement and they are in a pretty decent spot. I do have the ability to do DSP room equalization although that's been a pretty minor difference with the treatment and placement experimentation.

On the volume standpoint, that's mostly my preference. I run monitors or speakers a bit below where I'd run headphones which is conversation level, safe for long term hearing. That's what I'm happy with given my level of hearing damage and tinnitus. Headphones sound different but not better than monitors, so I think that's not an issue.

I think the Orange 1x12 cab is definitely a culprit. It is bright, beamy, and the low end takes a lot of space to bloom. If I'm facing the speaker (on or off axis) I hear the biting upper mids of the V30 pretty well, but don't hear much of the low end. If I go off to the side several feet then I hear all bass frequencies. It does emphasize the brightness/harshness of anything I play through it, although the lower midrange can be quite nice. I swapped the V30 for a V-Type but it sounds very similar, so to me it's mostly a cab sound.

The Fender FR-12 to me sounds better than the Orange, even though it's a different thing. The low end is a lot fuller and broader, so it sounds bigger in general, and I do have to cut the bass down so it's not as overwhelming. I do run the treble cut about halfway because I don't like all the high end. What I don't like about it is having both the impulse response and the cab shaping the sound, although I could probably find a happy medium with this one.

The Orange Rocker 15 through the 1x12 cab is very nasty sounding in the upper mids, but I'm pretty sure that's mostly the cab. I ran it for a while this weekend through a Two Notes Torpedo reactive load and into the Quad Cortex, and through IR and into headphones or the Fender cab it sounds a lot better. It's still not my cup of tea as it has basically a super clean channel and a pretty high gain channel that doesn't clean up the best, but it's not bad.

What I've been finding with modelers is there's a high end frequency to them that I have to dial out. In theory I shouldn't have to, but I've been running typically a high cut at around 5k so I don't get all the extra high end, even running through the effects return of the Orange tube amp into the speaker cabinet. It generally makes for a moving target. When I do the severe high cut at around 5k, the modelers start to sound pretty similar, so it gets to be more about the effects than anything else.

Friedman IR-X, I really like the simplicity and it's more plug and play compared to modelers, but I'm just not sure it's the right amp tone. The cleaner channel can do a nice breakup sound but it doesn't do big warm cleans as easily. The gain channel is really gainy and doesn't sound right with the gain dialed back. Kind of a scooped mids thing all the time. That's where I'm thinking the IR-D would be a better option...I think it would likely have a fuller sound in the mids and more versatility in the gain.

Don't get me wrong, it's not that everything sounds awful all the time, but I want more of a set and forget experience from the amp, where I can flip to one of a few sounds, and then have whatever effects sitting around that (probably coming from a modeler to be honest). And I don't want to have to fight the brightness all the time.
 
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