Digital Igloo (Eric Klein, YGG)

BenIfin said:
=> is overall modeler latency purely a factor of the hardware and AD/DA converters used (?) -or- can the Amp and EFX algorithms be written in such a way as to either increase or decrease the overall latency of the Amps and EFX in a modeler (?)
Click to expand...
If you're only measuring Guitar In > Main Output (no USB computer stuff), there are several factors:
  • A/D and D/A conversion
  • Sample Rate (this is why BOSS GT-1000 has such low latency)
  • Any sample rate conversion
  • Input and output DSP buffers
  • DSP (many blocks have "effectively" zero latency; others, like blocks with pitch detection, have several ms)
  • DSP processor hops (the more DSP chips you have, the more latency you have)
  • DSP core hops (yep, the more cores you have, the more latency you have. It's better to have fewer, faster cores than more cores for these types of products)
  • Electrical layout
Not an engineer; I'm sure I've forgotten stuff.
 
Digital Igloo said:
If you're only measuring Guitar In > Main Output (no USB computer stuff), there are several factors:
  • A/D and D/A conversion
  • Sample Rate (this is why BOSS GT-1000 has such low latency)
  • Any sample rate conversion
  • Input and output DSP buffers
  • DSP (many blocks have "effectively" zero latency; others, like blocks with pitch detection, have several ms)
  • DSP processor hops (the more DSP chips you have, the more latency you have)
  • DSP core hops (yep, the more cores you have, the more latency you have. It's better to have fewer, faster cores than more cores for these types of products)
  • Electrical layout
Not an engineer; I'm sure I've forgotten stuff.
Click to expand...

Genuine thanks D.I. I didn't know 3/4 of that :)

All the best,
Ben
 
Hi Digital Igloo and everyone here,
Could sample rate be improved, changed in Helix ? (I think not, hardware based).
Thanks.
And maybe you've missed my previous question, I don't know if it is doable :
Digital Igloo said:
Replacing the 1/4" Aux In with a second, identical Guitar In with 123dB dynamic range and an impedance circuit.
Click to expand...
Can Line 6 imagine something like the Radial Dragster solution (a load correction device) to complete "good old"Helix ?
(Type " Radial Dragster schematic" in your favorite browser).
 
Cheers DI! :)

Since the Ampeg VH140 came up, any chance we'll ever get to play with some of the vintage guitar-focused tube 'pegs in the Helix/HX universe?

Particularly the V4 and VT-40.
 
In a field where similar products have a 3-5 (or often failure to launch or much shorter) shelf life, did you guys even in your remotest dreams think people might still be talking about the Helix this many years on?

How uber stoked are the staff involved that people still love the Helix at least as much as at launch time, probably much more?
 
zib said:
Hi Digital Igloo and everyone here,
Could sample rate be improved, changed in Helix ? (I think not, hardware based).
Thanks.
Click to expand...
Sure. We could rewrite everything from scratch at 96kHz (including the core architecture), but you're getting roughly half the processing power (or 1/4 the processing power at 192kHz). So you either get half the blocks or sacrifice a lot of granularity/sound quality. But the latency reduction isn't anywhere close to half—generally less than 1ms.

Some may wax poetic on the sonic advantages of 96kHz, but within the confines of hardware guitar processing, that is complete :poop:. The only sonic advantage is very slightly improved latency, certainly not enough to discern unless your accrued latency is already hopelessly bad.

Oh, and unless everything in your entire system is also running at the higher sample rate—say, running AES/EBU or S/PDIF into ProTools at 96kHz, you add latency from sample rate conversion back down to 48kHz or D/A/D conversion. So if your DAW is at 48kHz, you need to either convert from 96kHz to 48kHz or do a D/A/D conversion, both of which negate any latency advantage of 96kHz.
Can Line 6 imagine something like the Radial Dragster solution (a load correction device) to complete "good old"Helix? (Type "Radial Dragster schematic" in your favorite browser).
Click to expand...
A schematic won't tell me much, as I have almost no engineering background. How is it different from changing Helix's variable input impedance circuit?
dronerstone said:
Cheers DI! :)

Since the Ampeg VH140 came up, any chance we'll ever get to play with some of the vintage guitar-focused tube 'pegs in the Helix/HX universe?

Particularly the V4 and VT-40.
Click to expand...
That would be super cool.
pipelineaudio said:
In a field where similar products have a 3-5 (or often failure to launch or much shorter) shelf life, did you guys even in your remotest dreams think people might still be talking about the Helix this many years on? How uber stoked are the staff involved that people still love the Helix at least as much as at launch time, probably much more?
Click to expand...
None of us really have much time to share any enjoyment, as most of our interactions are through Microsoft Teams. The Calabasas office fully opened up recently so that might change. (And yet, I'm typing this from my home studio/office.)

I'm sure Sales discusses current boxes a lot, but Products and Engineering are generally so focused on future stuff, we rarely have a chance to just sit and play with current hardware and software (except leading up to firmware updates). Some of the stuff we're working on won't be seen by the public for a long time, yet their first internal design docs were published back in September of 2017.
 
Last edited:
Hi Di.

I wonder sometimes, being the typical small things lover, if there ever had been talk or discussions about the possibility for even smaller feature packed Helix type of pedals. They wouldn’t necessarily be called “Helix” though.

The DL4 mk2 maybe raised the question of more of those.

I was thinking even smaller, like one or two switches. A modulation modeler pedal? A distortion modeler pedal?

I’m probably a minority amongst forum people that would like such things, but.. yeah, just thinking out loud from my own needs and wants.
 
the swede said:
I was thinking even smaller, like one or two switches. A modulation modeler pedal? A distortion modeler pedal?
Click to expand...
There are certainly disadvantages to the XX4 form factor and UI. Models limited to silkscreen, large footprint, not a lot of meaningful feedback, etc. Works great for a nostalgic product like DL4 but perhaps not for others, which is part of the reason why no one's seen MM4 MkII, FM4 MkII, or DM4 MkII (yet?).

But if we diverge from XX4's layout, there aren't too many places we'd go that wouldn't allow for much more meaningful products than "here's the green delay version, here's the blue mod version, etc." If the hardware's the same, it feels a bit greedy to force people to buy five different versions of effectively the same pedal unless there's a really unique twist that warrants a separate SKU. IMHO, of course; I'm sure other departments would love to sell five different stompboxes vs. one.
 
Digital Igloo said:
There are certainly disadvantages to the XX4 form factor and UI. Models limited to silkscreen, large footprint, not a lot of meaningful feedback, etc. Works great for a nostalgic product like DL4 but perhaps not for others, which is part of the reason why no one's seen MM4 MkII, FM4 MkII, or DM4 MkII (yet?).

But if we diverge from XX4's layout, there aren't too many places we'd go that wouldn't allow for much more meaningful products than "here's the green delay version, here's the blue mod version, etc." If the hardware's the same, it feels a bit greedy to force people to buy five different versions of effectively the same pedal unless there's a really unique twist that warrants a separate SKU. IMHO, of course; I'm sure other departments would love to sell five different stompboxes vs. one.
Click to expand...
Ask IK Multimedia how that's going. Their new pedals were selling for over 50% off during Amazon Days this summer and they're not even a year old yet.
 
Digital Igloo said:
There are certainly disadvantages to the XX4 form factor and UI. Models limited to silkscreen, large footprint, not a lot of meaningful feedback, etc. Works great for a nostalgic product like DL4 but perhaps not for others, which is part of the reason why no one's seen MM4 MkII, FM4 MkII, or DM4 MkII (yet?).

But if we diverge from XX4's layout, there aren't too many places we'd go that wouldn't allow for much more meaningful products than "here's the green delay version, here's the blue mod version, etc." If the hardware's the same, it feels a bit greedy to force people to buy five different versions of effectively the same pedal unless there's a really unique twist that warrants a separate SKU. IMHO, of course; I'm sure other departments would love to sell five different stompboxes vs. one.
Click to expand...
Makes sense. Thanks for your view on this.
Mookyshoots said:
Ask IK Multimedia how that's going. Their new pedals were selling for over 50% off during Amazon Days this summer and they're not even a year old yet.
Click to expand...
I think… it’s a bit different, because they also sell the exact same version of the pedals inside AT5 a bit cheaper. Feels like they tried to make a stab at the pedal crowd that weren’t really easily impressed, and the AT5 fans doesn’t really want to buy a pedal when they have the software.

With Line 6 and for example the DL4 mk2 (which they surely didn’t held back on features) you don’t have to chose the pedal or purchase the equivalent software. You either chose the pedal or any Helix product. Or maybe even go crazy and have both. I bet some stomp users actually got the DL4… just because. I wouldn’t. But I think I would at least consider a single switch pedal with all Helix modulations… as an example. But like I said in my earlier post, I’m just thinking “me” here. And wanted to vent that :giggle:
 
the swede said:
Makes sense. Thanks for your view on this.

I think… it’s a bit different, because they also sell the exact same version of the pedals inside AT5 a bit cheaper. Feels like they tried to make a stab at the pedal crowd that weren’t really easily impressed, and the AT5 fans doesn’t really want to buy a pedal when they have the software.

With Line 6 and for example the DL4 mk2 (which they surely didn’t held back on features) you don’t have to chose the pedal or purchase the equivalent software. You either chose the pedal or any Helix product. Or maybe even go crazy and have both. I bet some stomp users actually got the DL4… just because. I wouldn’t. But I think I would at least consider a single switch pedal with all Helix modulations… as an example. But like I said in my earlier post, I’m just thinking “me” here. And wanted to vent that :giggle:
Click to expand...
Don't get me wrong. I think L6 could issue a series of pedals that address everything wrong with TC's toneprint line and they'd probably sell well if they were priced to compete with that line. Give me four or five fully assignable knobs and the ability to load a handful of my own customizable presets (using a modified version of HX Edit) on a standard size or slightly larger pedal ala Strymon and I'd be all over that. For that matter, just take the run at Strymon but more affordable. It's not going to be apples to apples as far as algorithm quality as Strymon owns their space in that regard, but they could still eat into their marketshare a bit by getting close enough but costing less. Sort of what BOSS has done (would be funny to see L6 turn that tactic back around at BOSS).
 
the swede said:
I think… it’s a bit different, because they also sell the exact same version of the pedals inside AT5 a bit cheaper. Feels like they tried to make a stab at the pedal crowd that weren’t really easily impressed, and the AT5 fans doesn’t really want to buy a pedal when they have the software.
Click to expand...
I think a lot of the issue with IK's line so far is quality issues. Go look up reviews anywhere and you'll see numerous reviews of buyers having units breaking down on them, some having the replacement units fail on them as well. I had looked at them when the prices were so low but started reading the customer reviews and stopped cold.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top