Capture an amp in 2 parts: preamp + powersection?

[AFKAEjay(retired)]

I got me a fender supersonic…and I love both channels. I don’t get to bring it always…sometimes it’s QC into returns of different amps.
I prefer 1 set of sounds/way of work…else I get confused

Here’s the game plan:
1 Capture the preamp channels of the amp (via efx loop), put that into a signal path that outputs to whatever poweramp I’m using. When I have the SS with me, I’ll switch the captures off…and the efxloop for 4cm on.

2 Capture the powersection of the amp…and put that on a signal path to foh together with a cabsim. (Always on, so also when I play the amp, FOH gets a captured poweramp)

I never seen amps captured preamp / poweramp separately…any reason for that?

 

[HomespunEffects]

It seems like a great idea. I have an Axiom Effects Power Amp Emulator that just makes everything better so I like your plan.

 

[mbenigni]

I'm pretty confident there are preamps and power amps in the factory captures that can be mixed and matched in this way, and at least one forum member has experimented with making his own pre and power amp captures. (@SeeD?)

 

[AFKAEjay(retired)]

I did “the work”…and it looks like this will be my way to go moving forward.
I did captures of the preamp using the efx loop, capture of the poweramp only, and full DI capture for comparison.
I have the QC in 4cm with the supersonic

- toggling between real and captured preamp: no audible differences.
- full DI capture compared to only the preamp (run into the return of the amp): the powersection adds mostly presence, you can dial that out…but the preamp seems to give a more natural result / more open
- feeding the preamp capture into returns of 2 other combos also worked great…Offcourse cabdimensions/speaker do something…but the backbone/quality/usability is there. An important observation to me, cause I plug into returns of different amps..can’t bring the SS all the time.

I kinda like the strong marriage between what I got in the analog domain and the digital.
Made a rig of only “home brewed captures”…for now it yields the best result so far when I scroll to some of the rigs I came up with.
Capture of “the dude” works great into the SS.

Didn’t check the signal path that adds the poweramp and cabsim for foh/recording yet…but confident that will work.

I also DI captured the clean channel on 10…so clipping the poweramp at deafening volume. Observation: Even with earplugs in..that is a “cool vibe”…but not something that 100% reproduces “in the room” when you feed that back into the return.

 

[HomespunEffects]

A Mesa Mark V preamp into a Marshall JTM power amp would be the bees knees. It would be less stiff and sterile.

I did “the work”…and it looks like this will be my way to go moving forward.
I did captures of the preamp using the efx loop, capture of the poweramp only, and full DI capture for comparison.
I have the QC in 4cm with the supersonic

- toggling between real and captured preamp: no audible differences.
- full DI capture compared to only the preamp (run into the return of the amp): the powersection adds mostly presence, you can dial that out…but the preamp seems to give a more natural result / more open
- feeding the preamp into returns of 2 other combos also worked great…Offcourse cabdimensions/speaker do something…but the backbone/quality/usability is there.

I kinda like the strong marriage between what I got in the analog domain and the digital.
Made a rig of only “home brewed captures”…for now it yields the best result so far when I scroll to some of the rigs I came up with.
Capture of “the dude” works great into the SS.

Didn’t check the signal path that adds the poweramp and cabsim for foh/recording yet…but confident that will work.

I also DI captured the clean channel on 10…so clipping the poweramp at deafening volume. Observation: Even with earplugs in..that is a “cool vibe”…but not something that 100% reproduces “in the room” when you feed that back into the return.

Good job, bro! I’m very interested in this.

 

[bikescene]

I was thinking of trying this with NAM, eventually mixing preamp/poweramp sections of my Jet City JCA22H with my Peavey 6505.

 

[SeeD]

I'm pretty confident there are preamps and power amps in the factory captures that can be mixed and matched in this way, and at least one forum member has experimented with making his own pre and power amp captures. (@SeeD?)

I have never done a real preamp or poweramp capture, but I guess this will work just grate. I have only made NAM re captures of preamps and poweramps, and mixing these sound really good

 

[SeeD]

I did “the work”…and it looks like this will be my way to go moving forward.
I did captures of the preamp using the efx loop, capture of the poweramp only, and full DI capture for comparison.
I have the QC in 4cm with the supersonic

- toggling between real and captured preamp: no audible differences.
- full DI capture compared to only the preamp (run into the return of the amp): the powersection adds mostly presence, you can dial that out…but the preamp seems to give a more natural result / more open
- feeding the preamp capture into returns of 2 other combos also worked great…Offcourse cabdimensions/speaker do something…but the backbone/quality/usability is there. An important observation to me, cause I plug into returns of different amps..can’t bring the SS all the time.

I kinda like the strong marriage between what I got in the analog domain and the digital.
Made a rig of only “home brewed captures”…for now it yields the best result so far when I scroll to some of the rigs I came up with.
Capture of “the dude” works great into the SS.

Didn’t check the signal path that adds the poweramp and cabsim for foh/recording yet…but confident that will work.

I also DI captured the clean channel on 10…so clipping the poweramp at deafening volume. Observation: Even with earplugs in..that is a “cool vibe”…but not something that 100% reproduces “in the room” when you feed that back into the return.

Sharing is caring wink wink

 

[Elric]

Capturing separately works fine but when you capture them separately and then recombine the result will not be the same as if you were to capture them together because the preamp and the power share the same power supply, IRL.

TBH, I find it not worth the effort, for the most part. It is nice having a few power amp caps to spice up some preamps or signals from FX send, etc. But it feels well past the point of diminishing returns to try to mix and match too much. I have a big selection of preamps via the synergy stuff and frankly do not find much use in having gobs of power section models. A small selection of basic flavors and go.

Power amp only models do not really seem to contribute too much and feel inaccurate to me, because they are only snapping the power section at a single operating point. When the preamp is dialed in for that and you are capturing the whole thing it is cool but when you decouple it, that PA setting by itself with some other pre pasted in front is usually pretty 'meh' and does not feel generally useful to me.

In spite of having enough hardware to do/merit 10 or more of them; I think I have only done like two power amp caps because they're just not that useful.

IMHO.

 

[AFKAEjay(retired)]

Capturing separately works fine but when you capture them separately and then recombine the result will not be the same as if you were to capture them together because the preamp and the power share the same power supply, IRL.

TBH, I find it not worth the effort, for the most part. It is nice having a few power amp caps to spice up some preamps or signals from FX send, etc. But it feels well past the point of diminishing returns to try to mix and match too much. I have a big selection of preamps via the synergy stuff and frankly do not find much use in having gobs of power section models. A small selection of basic flavors and go.

Power amp only models do not really seem to contribute too much and feel inaccurate to me, because they are only snapping the power section at a single operating point. When the preamp is dialed in for that and you are capturing the whole thing it is cool but when you decouple it, that PA setting by itself with some other pre pasted in front is usually pretty 'meh' and does not feel generally useful to me.

In spite of having enough hardware to do/merit 10 or more of them; I think I have only done like two power amp caps because they're just not that useful.

IMHO.

My main objective is getting good/easy results out of using different poweramps/cabs (returns of combos). To my ears using captures of preamps give a wee bit better results then full models. To me the coupling by the powersupply is mostly theoretical, at least at volumes within headroom….i can’t tell any difference…that’s good enough for me. People have used preamps into powersamps for ages…so if even if not 100% the same..a proven method.

The poweramp capture is to go only in the feed to foh, not in the feed to poweramp/cab. Haven’t tried that yet, but I did try the preamp into IR..that’s pretty decent already, but lacks a little presence. The poweramp capture doesn’t seem to do more then add presence …so I’m confident it’s gonna work well enough for a feed to foh.
If a full capture turns out better then the sum of preamp and poweramp….it is what it is…and I’ll use those when I record. For live my priority is on my stagesound, that’s at least 50% of what the listener gets anyway in the places I play…and tbh…I’m sure preamp + poweramp is just fine for foh.

Whatever is true…I’m having a blast with these captures….best I ever had.

 

[SeeD]

I have poweramp captures that alter the sound and feel of a preamp capture. Say a poweramp capture of a Friedman BE at volume 2, and volume 5, and volume 8, this will drive the poweramp in a cool way. Same goes for a Mesa Boogie 2;90. You have to get the amp cooking to get the poweramp doing cool things, that and if the amp have presence knob option