Atomic Tonocracy (Inc NAM support)
- Thread starter MirrorProfiles
- Start date
That´s it. Couldn´t agree more.
I just don´t feel like donloading NAM profiles without any way of knowing the reference gain they were created at. And I can´t really understand how people is not worried about that in NAM or ToneX.
Tonocracy is just the way to go for me in the capture world (with the exception of devices that both capture and load profiles, such as Kemper or QC, since you know that every single capture is made with the same device/reference gain).
2dor
Roadie
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Most people doing NAM profiles nowadays seem to have started to include the dBu calibration value; at least that's what I've noticed for profiles that recently made it to Tonehunt.
mavrick102000
Shredder
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IIRC your capture dBU is +16.
So if I'm using Helix as my audio interface that has a value of +11.5 dBU would I just add a gain plug to make up the additional +4.5dBU?
MirrorProfiles
Rock Star
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Definitely seems to be more the creators (and maybe the ones making big collections of models with studio setups) that care most, it really avoids a lot of redundancy and grey areas to remove that massive variable.
I still think a lot of users aren’t too fussed although there’s definitely more of an interest now than 12 months ago
Slammin Mofo
Groupie
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Your first screenshot had levels all over the place, this one looks much better and more reasonable with values around +11 dBu.
Have you done the calibration as outlined by mirror profiles with the excel sheet sine wave level etc. when you did your NAM captures? If you're getting 0.5 V with that method out of your reamp box, then Tonocracy shouldn't have any problems with that signal, either. The calibration is only there to guarantee that your guitar input signal matches the reamp box output signal so that the amp sees no difference between the two.
Your Presonus Quantum Interface is this one, with +15 dBu instrument max input level, correct? Or do you use the newer generation quantum series?
The "Send to amp" output looks good, knowing that you're sending it to a high quality reamp box, but what may be problematic is the "return from amp" input channel. If I'm reading it correctly on the Presonus website, the mic/line in 8 has an input impedance of 10 Kilo Ohm, which is not hi-z, those are typicall in the 1 Mega Ohm or 1000 Kilo Ohm range. Usually, the receiving input should have an impedance 10 times greater than the signal coming in.
Which reactive load are you using?
If you're using a Suhr Reactive Load, then I'd ask you to try out your second hi-z input on the front just to see if that fixes the noise issue and if it can introduce some high-end which would get vanquished with a lower ohm input.
I know I've tried the line inputs versus the Hi-Z 2 input on my Apollo X8 and I much prefer the Hi-Z 2 input to receive the Suhr Reactive Load signal.
If you're using the St. Rock React:IR then this shouldn't be too much of a problem, since that one has a very low output impedance signal easily compatible with most mic inputs.
2dor
Roadie
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- 850
Yes - my stuff's calibrated for 16 dBu. You should decrease by 4.5 dB in the DAW if your interface is rated at 11.5 dBu.
Slammin Mofo
Groupie
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Sounds good! Yes, the accuracy should be close to NAM. NAM still comes out on top with a high epoch count, but they're rather close, within 0.1 to 2 dB, in my Null Tests across different amps and gain levels.
Also, keep in mind that Tonocracy always adds +3dB of speaker compression inside the amp block once you load up the capture into your signal chain, turn it down to 0 to experience the closest tone to your real amp. Sometimes this parameter can come in handy, but other times, it alters the natural tone of the capture a bit too much and it's better to keep it low. If there are captures that just sound shitty at +3dB it's worth a try to turn it down to 0 and see if the shittiness persists.
What kind of reactive load are you using? If it's a Suhr Reactive Load, I'd also try the other Hi-Z input instead of a line input on the back just to see if there are any differences. I know that there were differences with my Apollo X8 rig and John Suhr himself recommends Hi-Z inputs as receiving channels for his Suhr Reactive Load. Not sure if the same applies to the newer generation Suhr Reactive Load IR, I have the first gen Suhr RL and it's definitely noticeable with that one.
How are the training times? Are you experiencing times around 12-16 minutes? That should be the usual training velocity if I'm not going haywire with a mega capture pack
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Yeah I can't explain what happun.
Yes, Ed has walked me through a bunch of this in the past, and we got my reamp box calibrated a while back. The only difference this time round is, I took my Antelope Discrete 8 Pro SC out of the equation. I have an odd setup in that it is a two card setup, and my Quantum was acting as the send, and my Discrete 8 was acting as the return and my Hi-Z input. So maybe that was throwing the levels off before. I don't know.
Correct. It is that one.
Input inpedance for the line inputs is 10 kΩ on the Presonus Quantum, yes. But the return from amp signal is not a Hi-Z signal. It is a line level signal.
I'm not. I have a Neve DI box sat in between the head and cab, with the Neve set to speaker level. My cab is sat in my toilet, lmao.
I do have a Suhr Reactive Load, but not using it for this.
Doesn't really make sense, because the output of these loadboxes is not a Hi-Z signal ???
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Well... when somebody isn't hogging all of the server bandwidth AHEM ... it was about 16 minutes yesHow are the training times? Are you experiencing times around 12-16 minutes? That should be the usual training velocity if I'm not going haywire with a mega capture pack
2dor
Roadie
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- 850
^root of all issues
Slammin Mofo
Groupie
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- 22
Ah, yes, that's a rather complicated setup with two different interfaces, but I'm glad that you still were able to pull it off despite all of the complexities.
The older gen Suhr Reactive Load has an unbalanced line output impedance of 10 kohm and it's best to use a Hi-Z input for that signal. That's what I gathered from my own A/B tests and that's also what John Suhr himself, who also uses Apollo interfaces, recommends:
Anyone using the Suhr Reactive Load into the Great River ME-1NV???
If so, how are you going in (Hi-z Input or Mic/In)? So far I found out that the HI-Z input on front of the Great River will not take a TRS cable. Has to be unbalanced 1/4" or else it sounds awful. Something to do with not being able switch between hi-z and mic in so they're both kinda "on"...
www.thegearpage.net
A 10:1 impedance ratio is considered good in audio terms between receiving (10) and sending (1) impedance. Keeping it 1:1 can sound good but it's better to err on the safer side, that way you can be absolutely sure that all of the signal gets preserved as much as possible.
I don't know the output impedance of your Neve DI, if it's like 100 ohm then driving a 10kohm line input shouldn't be any problem at all since that 10:1 ratio minimum is still kept intact.
You can try to experiment with it just for the heck of it. The current clip does sound good though, so whatever you're doing seems to be working well and improvements might not be perceivable. Sometimes audio works in strange ways and it's worth experimenting.
Here's an interesting article that discusses this "10 to 1" rule when it comes to impedance matching:
Understanding Impedance
No home studio is immune from issues of impedance, yet the subject can seem very confusing. In this workshop we explain what the recording musician needs to know about impedance, and show you how to avoid lifeless guitar sounds, digital glitches, and fried amps!
"Typically, most microphones therefore have an output impedance of 150-200Ω, and most preamplifier inputs offer an input impedance of between 1.5kΩ and 3kΩ — on the limit of the 'ten times higher' rule of thumb I mentioned earlier."
BTW: I'll probably finish my VAI set today, which means I'll upload another big batch this evening, in a about 3 hours, but then I'll be done for the next couple of days at least until the Peavey Rockmaster sessions starts
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MirrorProfiles
Rock Star
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@Slammin Mofo Do you have any tips for entering metadata on big batches of captures? that’s usually the part I find most tedious, when for one amp much of the information will be the same (or similar) for a lot of models.
Slammin Mofo
Groupie
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- 22
Yes, I usually open up an Excel file that contains all the capture names and the descriptive text. I enter all the eq/gain setting numbers but you can omit those and just use gain setting and the same descriptive text in all of the captures as long as the capture name itself is distinctive from the rest.
Here's my excel file with the Vai + Powerstation combination:
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I usually create 3-4 entries with different gain levels. I then copy these 4 entires, move over to bing.com copilot AI and paste it there and then I ask it something like "can you substitute MV3 in each row with MV5?", to acount for different master volume levels or any other parameter and that way I can quickly generate a lot of names in a matter of seconds.
If I then have like 20 entries or so and I just need to substitute the word bright with the word balanced in all of them, I just copy all the 20 entries into the AI and ask it to substitete that word and you'll get a new list in return with 20 new entries. It really speeds up the process, otherwise this can take ages to adjust it manually...
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INPUT IMPEDANCE
Instrument Setting: 2.2 Meg Ohm
Speaker Setting: 200K Ohm
OUTPUT IMPEDANCE
Less than 40 Ohm
Slammin Mofo
Groupie
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- 22
With 40 Ohms, it should be no problem at all to drive a 10kohm input on the Presonus Quantum as it's lower by a factor of 200.
However, if you were to use your Suhr RL, it would be beneficial to experiment with the Hi-Z input, but the Neve rig should work just fine the way you have it set up now.
You guys really know your shit. Are any of you full-time recording engineers, or you just spent a lot of time on this? I've done everything music-related part-time in my life for MANY years, including having a studio, live sound business, and being a weekend barband guitarist, but man you guys are either awfully intelligent , or this has to be your career! Take that as what you will, but I live in a small State and have MANY guitarist friends, but I only know 2 guys that could probably understand your stuff! I'm ruling out 1 of my friends who even has a full-time studio as it'd be over his head!
mavrick102000
Shredder
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