Amp Misconceptions

[paisleywookiee]

Prolly because the platform for the 5150 is the peavey VTM 120, which is a clone of some guys Jose.

Brown talked about this in the show you mention. He tweaked the Sonics into Soldano territory, but he didnt achieve that by cloning the circuit.

Still douchey, especially since the original SLOs borrowed from the Mark II.

 

[ejecta]

Prolly because the platform for the 5150 is the peavey VTM 120, which is a clone of some guys Jose.

Brown talked about this in the show you mention. He tweaked the Sonics into Soldano territory, but he didnt achieve that by cloning the circuit.

I don’t know what came from what but a Peavey 5150 isn’t really that close to sounding like a SLO in my experience.

 

[tekbow]

I don’t know what came from what but a Peavey 5150 isn’t really that close to sounding like a SLO in my experience.

Because he changed the voicing.

Brown is the guy who designed the Peavey 5150 for Eddie. If he says the platform was a VTM, I'm inclined to believe him.

 

[ejecta]

Because he changed the voicing.

Brown is the guy who designed the Peavey 5150 for Eddie. If he says the platform was a VTM, I'm inclined to believe him.

I don’t doubt James in regards to the VTM but back in the day it was described as a “working man’s SLO.” I don’t hear the similarities.

 

[Whizzinby]

Based on the Tone Talk with Soldano and Dave, it appears there were some similarities with the 5150, but Dave seemed to indicate they had tweaked and change enough of it to be its own thing in his eyes. (The original rectifier though he called a rip-off)

 

[ejecta]

Dave seemed to indicate they had tweaked and change enough of it to be its own thing in his eyes. (The original rectifier though he called a rip-off)

Yeah and a Recto doesn’t sound like a Soldano. Soldano’s aren’t fizzy with loose bottom end. They may have ripped off Soldano but they did a horrible job.

 

[Whizzinby]

Yeah and a Recto doesn’t sound like a Soldano. Soldano’s aren’t fizzy with loose bottom end. They may have ripped off Soldano but they did a horrible job.

To be specific, Dave said the preamp was a ripoff. The power sections were different between the two.

He said the 5150 was enough of its own thing.

 

[ejecta]

To be specific, Dave said the preamp was a ripoff. The power sections were different between the two.

Interesting…. I’ve played amps with the same power section as a Recto that wasn’t loose and fizzy.

 

[JiveTurkey]

Interesting…. I’ve played amps with the same power section as a Recto that wasn’t loose and fizzy.

What amps were those? I thought MB notoriously sued everyone who took "design cues from them".

 

[la szum]

Randall Smith > Dave Friedman.... full stop.

Internet can piss and moan, cry foul, and toss out accusations all they want.

Dave Friedman ain't worthy of washing Randall's undies in the LA River.

He has 13 flavors of Marshall that all diminish and detract from what a Marshall is, IME.

Meanwhile, the modern guitar amp world is bereft without the ingenuity and innovation
of Randall Smith and the crew at Mesa Boogie.



(Not hating on Dave. Just that he is like the flavour of the month in the recent past, and only
does one "kind" of amp with varying ranges of gain. I do look forward to what Dave may do
in the future outside of the "modernized Marshall" cul-de-sac. )

 

[Baba]

Randall Smith > Dave Friedman.... full stop.

Internet can piss and moan, cry foul, and toss out accusations all they want.

Dave Friedman ain't worthy of washing Randall's undies in the LA River.

He has 13 flavors of Marshall that all diminish and detract from what a Marshall is, IME.

Meanwhile, the modern guitar amp world is bereft without the ingenuity and innovation
of Randall Smith and the crew at Mesa Boogie.

James Brown > everyone else

 

[ejecta]

What amps were those? I thought MB notoriously sued everyone who took "design cues from them".

I’ve played a lot of amps with 6L6 power sections. Carol Ann, 5153, Fender, Bogner, etc. it’s very probable the transformers for MB are different than the other amps I’ve played with a 6L6 power section. I’m no amp tech but I’m not totally ignorant of what effects a guitar amp’s sound and from listening to successful amp designers I would think the fizz and loose bottom came more from the preamp but I could be wrong. Even a Recto with EL34 power section is fizzy and loose IME.

 

[JiveTurkey]

I’ve played a lot of amps with 6L6 power sections. Carol Ann, 5153, Fender, Bogner, etc. very probable the transformers for MB are different than the other amps I’ve played with a 6L6 power section. I’m no amp tech but I’m not totally ignorant of what effects a guitar amp’s sound and fell from listening to successful amp designers and I would think the fizz and loose bottom came more from the preamp but I could be wrong. Even a Recto with EL34 power section is fizzy and loose IME.

I always thought Boogies had specific power sections that made them "what they were" combined with the preamps vs toss 6l6s into some vanilla sausage?

 

[ejecta]

Randall Smith > Dave Friedman.... full stop.

Internet can piss and moan, cry foul, and toss out accusations all they want.

Dave Friedman ain't worthy of washing Randall's undies in the LA River.

He has 13 flavors of Marshall that all diminish and detract from what a Marshall is, IME.

Meanwhile, the modern guitar amp world is bereft without the ingenuity and innovation
of Randall Smith and the crew at Mesa Boogie.



(Not hating on Dave. Just that he is like the flavour of the month in the recent past, and only
does one "kind" of amp with varying ranges of gain. I do look forward to what Dave may do
in the future outside of the "modernized Marshall" cul-de-sac. )

Randall deserves the recognition he gets. The whole “better” thing is silly IMHO. It’s like one person’s recipe over the other. It’s all subjective and honestly I’m not fan of Friedman or Mesa Boogie and I gigged a Tremoverb in the 90’s a lot. Neither are bad amps just not my tastes.

 

[ejecta]

I always thought Boogies had specific power sections that made them "what they were" combined with the preamps vs toss 6l6s into some vanilla sausage?

Could very well be… if true I wasn’t aware of it. I think the “simul class” thing for the power section is their “design” but that’s on amps of theirs that aren’t fuzzy and loose. Again I’m no amp tech so I should probably stay in my lane but my ears and hands tell me that a Recto sounds and plays nothing like an SLO. All IME and YMMV applied.

 

[andergtr]

i think having soundclips is very helpful, though you still have to consider the rest of the context, among them:

1. guitarist's style and touch. heavy playing and light playing are gonna be wildly different outcomes.

2. how you set the controls.

3. the speaker cab.

4. the speakers.

5. the style of music.

6. the rest of the rig.

 

[TSJMajesty]

i think having soundclips is very helpful, though you still have to consider the rest of the context, among them:


4. the speakers.

 

[James Freeman]

Add microphones, micing technique and equalizing, and the actual amp becomes almost insignificant.
Might as well be a Fender Twin with a Guv'nor into a V30 cab.

 

[FractalAudio]

Actually the Rectifier power amp is very similar to the SLO100 power amp in "Normal" or "Vintage" mode. The screen resistors on an SLO100 are 470 ohms, a Recto has 1K. The feedback resistor on an SLO is 39K, 47K on a Recto. So slightly less feedback on a Recto. A Recto will be a bit squishier, while the SLO will be a bit stiffer and "drier".

In Modern mode there is NO feedback on a Recto. This changes the sound dramatically.

Then there is the tube vs. SS rectifier which changes the power amp sag.

The preamps are virtually identical except for one small difference that actually makes a very big difference in the final EQ. There's an RC high-cut network on the output of the tone stack.

That simple network rolls of the highs and changes the output EQ of the preamp, pretty dramatically. I forget exactly but it's around a 10dB cut.

Another difference is the gain network. An SLO has a 500K pot, a Recto has 250K. This shapes the input EQ a bit differently.

Otherwise the preamps are virtually identical. The Recto preamp *AND* power amp are clearly derived from an SLO100. Blatant rip-off? Some say yes. I would say that it "borrows heavily" from an SLO with some minor changes that actually change the voicing considerably. So the EQ is different but the gain staging, and hence the distortion texture and compression, is the same.

It's clearly not an original design but then most amps aren't. The first Marshalls were copies of a Bassman. There are dozens of amps that are essentially copies of an AC30. There are hundreds of amps that are copies of a tweed Deluxe.

The SLO100 itself is derived from a modded Marshall. The 39K cold-clipper stage is somewhat unique and I think most people don't understand exactly what that stage does and why it's designed the way it is but the JCM800 had a fairly cold stage with a 10K cathode resistor.

There aren't really that many unique amp designs out there. Most everything is derived from the early amps which, in turn, were based on the RCA Receiving Tube Manual. Guys actually doing unique things are Bruce Zinky, James Brown, Santiago Alvarez, Steve Fryette, Peter Diezel, et. al. Peter Diezel actually has amazing ears for detuned tones. There aren't any other amps that match the unique, coarse distortion texture that he coaxes out of his designs. I know how he does it but in respect to him I won't divulge the secret.

 

[andergtr]

Add microphones, micing technique and equalizing, and the actual amp becomes almost insignificant.
Might as well be a Fender Twin with a Guv'nor into a V30 cab.

not totally 100% true, of course, but there is so much truth to this. :)