Amp Misconceptions

[dk_ace]

Meanwhile my SLO100 and Triple rec couldn’t sound more different. I’m not disputing Cliff, the man walks on water but my ears do not hear this. To me they sound as similar as a fender amp and a tuba.

It’s not just cliff. I’ve heard the same from Friedman and soldano, I think from suhr too. Maybe it’s something that only makes sense to amp designers. Like the circuit and layout is essentially the same, hence their comments, but the part choices are different leading to the difference in sound.

I traded away my triple rec years ago, but I gigged that amp for a very long time. Ive had modelers that did the recto really well (Helix and Fractal). While I’ve never played an SLO, I assume they get the basic vibe of it right too. I don’t find the slo and rectos to be very similar. Maybe I just always thought they were different so I approach them differently and now that’s stuck in my head but they really are the same? I dunno…


D

 

[Whizzinby]

It’s not just cliff. I’ve heard the same from Friedman and soldano, I think from suhr too. Maybe it’s something that only makes sense to amp designers. Like the circuit and layout is essentially the same, hence their comments, but the part choices are different leading to the difference in sound.

There’s a Tone Talk on YT between Soldano and Friedman where they talk about this. Mike was a little more reserved as he seems like such a genuinely nice dude, but Friedman was fine letting it rip. lol

Mesa may have deviated from the design with later revisions of the amp, but according to Soldano/Friedman they ripped off his preamp design with the original Rectifier. Only the power sections differed.

 

[Jarick]

People used to think they're gainier than they are because they got boosted with everything and there's still this attitude that boosting an amp is cheating.

Nothing sounds like a boosted 800 2203/04. Not even the best mods.

Bang on. Basically needs an SD-1 to get that "classic 800" tone.

I started playing in the 90's so I always thought you either had a clean amp with a high gain distortion pedal, or an amp that could switch between clean and high gain channels. I didn't really understand what a boost pedal was.

In the mid 2000's, I had a Marshall DSL and I liked the clean channel but thought the drive pedal was too harsh and fizzy/scooped. I learned (probably from the Harmony Central amp forum honestly) about Zakk Wylde using an SD-1 to boost his Marshall, and picked up the MXR Zakk Wylde overdrive. Was amazed how it unlocked a much bigger and thicker sound. Then I learned how you can use clean channel in crunch mode just when it starts breaking up and roll your guitar volume back for a clean tone or hit the boost for a high gain sound. Coincidentally that's how I run the Strymon Iridium now.

 

[JiveTurkey]

Bang on. Basically needs an SD-1 to get that "classic 800" tone.

I started playing in the 90's so I always thought you either had a clean amp with a high gain distortion pedal, or an amp that could switch between clean and high gain channels. I didn't really understand what a boost pedal was.

In the mid 2000's, I had a Marshall DSL and I liked the clean channel but thought the drive pedal was too harsh and fizzy/scooped. I learned (probably from the Harmony Central amp forum honestly) about Zakk Wylde using an SD-1 to boost his Marshall, and picked up the MXR Zakk Wylde overdrive. Was amazed how it unlocked a much bigger and thicker sound. Then I learned how you can use clean channel in crunch mode just when it starts breaking up and roll your guitar volume back for a clean tone or hit the boost for a high gain sound. Coincidentally that's how I run the Strymon Iridium now.

Elsewhere; @Guitarbilly is smiling

 

[la szum]

Nothing sounds like a boosted 800 2203/04. Not even the best mods.

And especially not a Friedman.

 

[la szum]

I think the biggest one is the JCM800.

I've heard so many guitarists tell stories about being so excited to get one and then being so disappointed because they couldn't figure out how to make it sound like they thought it would sound.

That amp can sound amazing, but it's quirky and only really sounds good if you know how to dial it in. Many people end up getting horrible sounds out of them (usually because they're trying to use them at less than ear-bleed volumes).

My favourite amp of all time. Honestly, I am unable to get a bad sound. Maybe I am just lucky.

People often sleep on the Lo Input and the amazing cleans and edge of breakup sounds that
input can deliver. And with a Strat or other guitar with vintage output single-coils? OMFG!

If I had to have one amp to do it all, and cover a wide range of styles with it, it would be an 800/2204/2203
from the early to mid 80s period. Just so responsive on the front end. Sounds like a totally different with
high output humbuckers than low-wind vintage output pickups.

This is my Made For Canada 800 from 1985 with the metal toggles and vertical inputs.

 

[metropolis_4]

My favourite amp of all time. Honestly, I am unable to get a bad sound. Maybe I am just lucky.

People often sleep on the Lo Input and the amazing cleans and edge of breakup sounds that
input can deliver. And with a Strat or other guitar with vintage output single-coils? OMFG!

If I had to have one amp to do it all, and cover a wide range of styles with it, it would be an 800/2204/2203
from the early to mid 80s period. Just so responsive on the front end. Sounds like a totally different with
high output humbuckers than low-wind vintage output pickups.

This is my Made For Canada 800 from 1985 with the metal toggles and vertical inputs.

That's definitely another big misconception about them. Everyone thinks about them for 80s high gain rock/metal, but they're so much more versatile than that!

I've always been a fan of the clean and light breakup sounds out of them. Kinda wish I had one sometimes, it's a great versatile amp to have around.

 

[tekbow]

Bang on. Basically needs an SD-1 to get that "classic 800" tone.

oddly enough, that's exactly what I use on my Gower.

Fortunately, the original sounds are still in there if I want em

 

[tekbow]

Agree totally. Not being able to foot-switch between clean/crunch and not having independent gain/volume controls for clean/crunch sorta stinks. Limits it versatility, which is otherwise quite considerable. Ultimately that made me ‘internet feature checklist’ sell it, but I probably could/should have kept it anyway. (Needs to go back on my buy-twice list lol)

I think you have to look at when it was designed and what Mike said he wanted to achieve.

I think 86 was the original, true SLO100 (not Mr Science), 87 was a number of amps for high profile clients and 88 was full production.

What else was around in 86/87/88 that was properly 3 channels and separate EQs? The Mark IVs hadn't arrived yet.

And Mike said, reportedly that he wanted to keep the signal path as simple as possible. If you ever see inside one, its surprisingly basic looking.

The Clean mode of Normal was really just an after thought that was doable and turned out to sound real nice (although I think it needs the SRV/scoop switch to really sparkle).

I believe all clean mode is, is dumping a bunch of signal before the first gain stage. Is that kind like rolling back the guitar volume or using a volume pedal before the amp?

Anyway, that's why Mike and Bill used to recommend diming the Normal master (3 o'clock or more) then using the Normal gain as the volume, because it needed that to match the OD channel volume.

If you made, crunch/clean footswitchable, there's always Be a huge jump in volume.

Here's the kicker, because amps like the Mark II set precedent for pros having multiple same amps set up for different sounds (because shared EQ in that case), I reckon noone thought it was a big deal to have "only" crunch and OD, or clean and OD, especially when you can roll back the guitar volume on crunch mode and get it "clean enough".

It's only in the last 20 years or so that we've been really spoiled for choice with 3+ channel amps that didnt.cost a fortune and were obtainable. But by that point the SLO had become a classic, so if they had changed it dramatically, you were "messing with the magic" and, more pragmatically, making it more complex internally which Mike originally didn't want.

 

[Baba]

That's definitely another big misconception about them. Everyone thinks about them for 80s high gain rock/metal, but they're so much more versatile than that!

I've always been a fan of the clean and light breakup sounds out of them. Kinda wish I had one sometimes, it's a great versatile amp to have around.

At one point, I was using the 800 model in my Helix, because of the lighter dirt tones and the way it cleans up. I was surprised, to say the least.

 

[GTR37]

There’s a Tone Talk on YT between Soldano and Friedman where they talk about this. Mike was a little more reserved as he seems like such a genuinely nice dude, but Friedman was fine letting it rip. lol

Mesa may have deviated from the design with later revisions of the amp, but according to Soldano/Friedman they ripped off his preamp design with the original Rectifier. Only the power sections differed.

It the 39k resistor that’s the smoking gun because Mike just chose a random value and it was a happy accident
As he said if Mesa had used a35 K
Or 40 K he probably would not have questioned it but the 39k at the exact same spot in the circuit gives it away

The JCM800 had a 10k clipper
Bogner had some other values
But 39 is the signature Soldano on the Overdrive channel

 

[Steinmetzify]

This is really interesting to me.

I haven’t heard Bob play but I’ve been listening to @Baba for years on another forum and always respected his tones.

I think it’s interesting what one player hears and another can’t stand.

Between me and a good friend we have like 7-8 different Oranges, and love them all, and we’re both metal players.

Aside from the Oranges we have everything from Diezels to SS Randalls and play them all, and can get whatever we want from the Oranges too.

Weird to me what one guy thinks is ‘tight but just spongy/saggy enough’ and another guy thinks is a ‘ratty mess’.

No judgment, just cool to me and love that some guys get THIS from this amp and another guy can’t even play it.

For my deal I really just can’t stand Marshalls.

I’ve owned and sold a bunch and just can’t ever seem to get what I want out of them.

I know a guy that has bought and sold like a straight dozen DSLs and I fuckin HATED every iteration of that amp I’ve ever tried, and I’ve owned 4 of them, just because of this dude. I respect him and have bought them because he loved them and he’s a great player, but I hated every one of em and all the other Marshalls too.

EDIT: I would legit take any Mesa out there over any Marshall all day long, even the 50 Cal. They just work for me.

 

[ejecta]

Owned a SLO30 and I found it to be quite remarkable with that gummy midrange, and the way it reacts to gain is really impressive… it…just…gets…meaner… while retaining its note separation.

It def has a fat @$$ that needs to be handled. (That’s what she said) I hit mine with an OCD.

I don’t know that it’s magical, but it does a thing, and that thing is awesome.

You’ll pry my SLO30 from my cold dead hands.

 

[ejecta]

Is it outdoor-giggable loud?

I’ve not played it in an outdoors situation but have in very large rooms and it more than handles it own. The SLO30, Bogner 3534 and the Suhr Badger 30 are all very loud 30 watt amps. When you get to around 30 watts IME if it’s built right it getting loud isn’t the issue. It’s more about clean headroom at that point where larger watt amps have a bit more open headroom thing a lot 30 watt amps don’t.

 

[JiveTurkey]

I’ve not played it in an outdoors situation but have in very large rooms and it more than handles it own. The SLO30, Bogner 3534 and the Suhr Badger 30 are all very loud 30 watt amps. When you get to around 30 watts IME if it’s built right it getting loud isn’t the issue. It’s more about clean headroom at that point where larger watt amps have a bit more open headroom thing a lot 30 watt amps don’t.

#NOTHELPING

 

[Jarick]

When I was shopping for guitars yesterday, I plugged into an AC15. Haven't spent much time with Vox amps in person. I didn't realize that the top boost channel tone controls were highly interactive and seemed to not just impact the high/low frequencies but also shaped the midrange. Like cranking up the treble not only boosted the treble but reduced the upper midrange, and cranking up the bass reduced the lower midrange. Now playing with the AC30 TB amp on the Fractal, it's much easier to figure out where to set the knobs. And now the high cut control is actually useful because to shape the treble closer to a BF Fender, you have the treble up high where it sounds sharp, then add the high cut back in to bring the highs back down.

 

[Gearzilla]

Is it outdoor-giggable loud?

It’s only going to be about 6 or so db quieter than the 100, however it will have less clean headroom.

 

[paisleywookiee]

I’ve heard the same from Friedman and soldano,

Those two bash Mesa every chance they get, so I don’t really take them seriously. Thing is, the original rectos were just like the SLO preamp, but different power amp. Same with the Peavey 5150. James Brown doesn’t get bashed for it though, because Friedman’s had James on his show.

They also neglect to mention what Soldano borrowed from the early Mark series, but I guess that’s okay.

 

[andergtr]

personally i love the SLO, but it is a bit of a specialized pony. and it does that well. no other soldano sounds like an SLO but an SLO.

 

[tekbow]

Those two bash Mesa every chance they get, so I don’t really take them seriously. Thing is, the original rectos were just like the SLO preamp, but different power amp. Same with the Peavey 5150. James Brown doesn’t get bashed for it though, because Friedman’s had James on his show.

They also neglect to mention what Soldano borrowed from the early Mark series, but I guess that’s okay.

Prolly because the platform for the 5150 is the peavey VTM 120, which is a clone of some guys Jose.

Brown talked about this in the show you mention. He tweaked the Sonics into Soldano territory, but he didnt achieve that by cloning the circuit.