“Overpriced”

[ejecta]

So this term has been thrown around a lot lately in this section and for the record I don’t see this as something that’s objectively true for everyone. It’s opinion.

I’m curious what makes a digital unit overpriced to you? Is it how many features the unit offers for the price? Is it more about quality of the build of the unit and user interface? Does it sounding really good or bad play factor for you? All the above?

I’ll put my opinion here…. for me if it does the thing I like the most and is the best at doing that thing, also has a decent build quality, then the higher price tag usually isn’t a factor. The main thing that makes me say something is overpriced is where it’s overinflated due to market supply and demand excluding rare vintage gear.

 

[Achilles]

What factors into retail price?

1. Parts costs and labor.
- are you spec'ing the best of the best parts, making reasonable compromises, or going down and dirt cheap?
- you using experienced and qualified labor or just any warm bodies with minimal training?
- you making 500 per run or 5,000?
2. Tooling and NRE amortization.
- How many custom tools and/or costly engineering went into development?
- how over or under budget did the entire project come in from estimates?
3. Factory, brand, and dealer markup/profit.
- not all factories are created equal and charge accordingly
- Sweetwater is going to want a 40-60% markup where-as some can get by on quite a bit less.
- do you sell factory or brand direct or through a massive network of dealers?
4. Marketing and distribution costs.
- how many full page ads did you buy to promote the product? Did you do any trade shows prior to release?
- based on your volumes how much does logistics from factory to customer factor into the costs?
4. Reputation and prestige factors.
- Behringer vs Fractal. nuff said.
5. Sales volume and finished goods turnover.
- how long will it take you to sell those 500 (or 5,000) units? what is your warehouse costs?
- is your sales volume steady enough to order bulk qtys. of parts from your factory and then release them per order?
- or, do they have to order raw materials from their sub-suppliers every time you place an order?

TL-DR

Too many factors to judge the brands side by side based solely on retail price imo.

 

[paisleywookiee]

Of course it’s subjective. This is a discussion forum. People discuss what’s a good value to them, or isn’t, in comparison to what else is on the market.
In my opinion, stuff like the Profiler Player, when compared to the HX Stomp, FM3T, and Tonex Pedal, is “overpriced”.
The UA pedals, also when compared to the HX Stomp or ToneX pedal, are overpriced. Also my opinion. It’s a factor of features, construction, and of course tones, both variety and quality.
There’s going to be people that are so enamored with the Kemper sounds, or UA, or whatever, that to them those products are not overpriced, and they’re a good value. That’s fine.

 

[ejecta]

What factors into retail price?

1. Parts costs and labor.
- are you spec'ing the best of the best parts, making reasonable compromises, or going down and dirt cheap?
- you using experienced and qualified labor or just any warm bodies with minimal training?
- you making 500 per run or 5,000?
2. Tooling and NRE amortization.
- How many custom tools and/or costly engineering went into development?
- how over or under budget did the entire project come in from estimates?
3. Factory, brand, and dealer markup/profit.
- not all factories are created equal and charge accordingly
- Sweetwater is going to want a 40-60% markup where-as some can get by on quite a bit less.
- do you sell factory or brand direct or through a massive network of dealers?
4. Marketing and distribution costs.
- how many full page ads did you buy to promote the product? Did you do any trade shows prior to release?
- based on your volumes how much does logistics from factory to customer factor into the costs?
4. Reputation and prestige factors.
- Behringer vs Fractal. nuff said.
5. Sales volume and finished goods turnover.
- how long will it take you to sell those 500 (or 5,000) units? what is your warehouse costs?
- is your sales volume steady enough to order bulk qtys. of parts from your factory and then release them per order?
- or, do they have to order raw materials from their sub-suppliers every time you place an order?

TL-DR

Too many factors to judge the brands side by side based solely on retail price imo.

I understand what goes into pricing from a production point of view but what makes you look at something and say that’s overpriced.

 

[Achilles]

I understand what goes into pricing from a production at a don’t buy as a consumer what makes you look at something and say that’s overpriced.

Sorry, went a bit sideways there. For me I guess it's a combo of features, brand, and how badly the little kid in me wants something. I agree that UA immediately comes across as overpriced but then my brain kicks in and looks at the beautiful custom tooled enclosure and labor intensive styling and it makes sense - still won't buy one though.

But ya, if two boxes are doing basically the same things then it'd be reputation and first impressions on whether one or the other is priced too high.

 

[ejecta]

Of course it’s subjective. This is a discussion forum. People discuss what’s a good value to them, or isn’t, in comparison to what else is on the market.
In my opinion, stuff like the Profiler Player, when compared to the HX Stomp, FM3T, and Tonex Pedal, is “overpriced”.
The UA pedals, also when compared to the HX Stomp or ToneX pedal, are overpriced. Also my opinion. It’s a factor of features, construction, and of course tones, both variety and quality.
There’s going to be people that are so enamored with the Kemper sounds, or UA, or whatever, that to them those products are not overpriced, and they’re a good value. That’s fine.

Yeah comparing things is part of it because how could you say overpriced. So let’s say they are both built with quality materials which can be objectively proven. I guess that leaves subjective things tones and number of feature sets that people put value in. Interesting.

 

[ejecta]

Sorry, went a bit sideways there. For me I guess it's a combo of features, brand, and how badly the little kid in me wants something. I agree that UA immediately comes across as overpriced but then my brain kicks in and looks at the beautiful custom tooled enclosure and labor intensive styling and it makes sense - still won't buy one though.

But ya, if two boxes are doing basically the same things then it'd be reputation and first impressions on whether one or the other is priced too high.

So for you it’s mostly about physical feature sets? If a device sounds better to you than others but has less features that doesn’t level the price field a bit?

 

[Achilles]

So let’s say they are both built with quality materials which can be objectively proven.

I guess warranty terms and the service reputation of the brand is pretty big too if you're on the fence.

 

[Achilles]

So for you it’s mostly about physical feature sets?

Definitely not! Comment is purely for the discussion. Best sound is #1 for sure.

 

[JiveTurkey]

Everything is expensive nowadays. And there is a bounty of choices out there. Before bringing sound preferences and/or feature set into the discussion.

 

[Enchilada Jones]

Sorry, went a bit sideways there. For me I guess it's a combo of features, brand, and how badly the little kid in me wants something. I agree that UA immediately comes across as overpriced but then my brain kicks in and looks at the beautiful custom tooled enclosure and labor intensive styling and it makes sense - still won't buy one though.

But ya, if two boxes are doing basically the same things then it'd be reputation and first impressions on whether one or the other is priced too high.

Objectively I see the UA amp pedals as extremely overpriced based on features missing that their competitors have but when I plug a guitar in and play, especially the Lion or Dream my objective senses are completely ignored because the pedals do that amp model, in its full range of tones, so well I start rationalizing the addition of other ways to overcome the missing features. I become unqualified to judge them in any kind of sensible way.

Objectively, dollar per feature, the FM9 is the best of all I have and I use it the least!

 

[ejecta]

Objectively I see the UA amp pedals as extremely overpriced based on features missing that their competitors have but when I plug a guitar in and play, especially the Lion or Dream my objective senses are completely ignored because the pedals do that amp model, in its full range of tones, so well I start rationalizing the addition of other ways to overcome the missing features. I become unqualified to judge them in any kind of sensible way.

Ok that’s interesting. So that you like the tones of units with less features per price and that makes you unqualified? Ok?

So setting hardware aside does more models for makes something worth more money to you as a user?

Like I said it’s subjective but perplexed that number of features seem to be winning out for some over tones for a guitar player. I would think good tones would be more inspiring than a bunch of features but again it’s subjective.

Lastly it’s not objectively true UA or any gear is overpriced. Features numbers doesn’t objectively make something more valuable. That’s most certainly subjective.

 

[DrewJD82]

I look at modeling very differently than any other piece of gear. The biggest benefit to modeling, IMO, is the “everything and anything” aspect, we already have guitars, amps and pedals that limit your options, as great as they may be. Modeling removes those limitations of single pieces of gear.

It’s precisely why I was drawn to Fractal; give me as many functions and options you can dream up, I may not have it in my head to use them now but I may in the future, or maybe exploring those options is what ends up causing me to go down different avenues (which has been the case several times now).

While I wouldn’t call anything not-Fractal “overpriced”, for me they’d fall in the ‘not worth it’ category. If I’m going to have limitations, or if I’m getting just digital versions of regular amps, I’m fine just buying the amps and using a load box.

 

[ejecta]

I look at modeling very differently than any other piece of gear. The biggest benefit to modeling, IMO, is the “everything and anything” aspect, we already have guitars, amps and pedals that limit your options, as great as they may be. Modeling removes those limitations of single pieces of gear.

It’s precisely why I was drawn to Fractal; give me as many functions and options you can dream up, I may not have it in my head to use them now but I may in the future, or maybe exploring those options is what ends up causing me to go down different avenues (which has been the case several times now).

While I wouldn’t call anything not-Fractal “overpriced”, for me they’d fall in the ‘not worth it’ category. If I’m going to have limitations, or if I’m getting just digital versions of regular amps, I’m fine just buying the amps and using a load box.

Not sure I see that analog gear is that restrictive especially given the options we have available to us there too. Also given my profession and experience over the years with gear, I don’t always see limitless options being the most conducive thing to have when it comes to good tone and musical creativity but I do see where you are coming from.

 

[laxu]

To me it's always relative to what else is out there.

Something like a Fractal FC-12 is really expensive in Europe when it's 224 € less than a Helix LT, a full blown modeler with an expression pedal. That's hard to justify for a proprietary, non-MIDI controller. Similarly a FM9 at 805 € more than a Helix Floor, or 705 € more then a QC is pretty expensive, but you might find that palatable for the sound quality, not only in amp modeling but also cabs and effects. I'd call the FM9 "premium priced" rather than "overpriced", while I'd call the FC-12 "overpriced."

In a similar manner the Kemper Player is expensive at 43 € more than a HX Stomp. The HX has over 200 effects models, a good pile of amps and cabs, flexible routing, as compact form factor etc. Operation between these two devices might matter, but the Tonex at nearly half the price of the Kemper might seem like a better deal since you get more accurate captures + Tonex and Amplitube 5 plugins, even if the overall user experience is absolutely garbage tier. So Kemper Player lives in that interpretative dance area of "overpriced or not?"

If you venture outside the digital realm, you definitely end up with questions. Why is a Magnatone, or Wizard 1000+ € more than a Friedman, Bogner, Mesa etc boutique USA brands? Why is a Soldano SLO30 900 € more than a Soldano Astro 20 and doesn't even have the IR capabilities? What makes a Chase Bliss CXM worth over 2x the price of the closest Strymon or SA reverb? How is a 7000 € Gibson LP better than a 5000 € model? At some point it starts to feel like you are paying a premium, but NOT getting something in return.

 

[DrewJD82]

Not sure I see that analog gear is that restrictive especially given the options we have available to us there too. Also given my profession and experience over the years with gear, I don’t always see limitless options being the most conducive thing to have when it comes to good tone and musical creativity but I do see where you are coming from.

It’s not restrictive if you’ve got an unlimited budget to buy a ton of stuff, but you’re not going to be able to dial in a chugga chugga metal tone out of a Fender Twin. Once you get into the multi-channel amps that try to over the most ground, there’s some concession/compromise made somewhere along the way. I can get a Mark IV/VII and cover a ton of ground, but it’s not going to cover the same ground an old Marshall or a 5150 would.

 

[kartikg3]

In a similar manner the Kemper Player is expensive at 43 € more than a HX Stomp. The HX has over 200 effects models, a good pile of amps and cabs, flexible routing, as compact form factor etc. Operation between these two devices might matter, but the Tonex at nearly half the price of the Kemper might seem like a better deal since you get more accurate captures + Tonex and Amplitube 5 plugins, even if the overall user experience is absolutely garbage tier. So Kemper Player lives in that interpretative dance area of "overpriced or not?"

This .. 100% agreed. To me, HX Stomp is baseline to compare and see if something is overpriced or now. Personally to me, it is workflow-featureset : tone ratio, and HX Stomp hits the right spot of quality, workflow featureset and price.

 

[Enchilada Jones]

Ok that’s interesting. So that you like the tones of units with less features per price and that makes you unqualified? Ok?

So setting hardware aside does more models for makes something worth more money to you as a user?

Like I said it’s subjective but perplexed that number of features seem to be winning out for some over tones for a guitar player. I would think good tones would be more inspiring than a bunch of features but again it’s subjective.

Lastly it’s not objectively true UA or any gear is overpriced. Features numbers doesn’t objectively make something more valuable. That’s most certainly subjective.

For me more models is no longer the number one concern. I found that no matter how many models available I really gravitate to five or six.
I need a Plexi in the Jimmy Page to AC DC range of gain for cleanish to crunchy
A Vox AC30 for its variety of those same tones.
A Deluxe Reverb for clean on up to pushed too far.
A Tweed Deluxe or Tweed Bassman clean to too far as well.
And recently I discovered my never quite being completely satisfied with the upper gain levels of the Plexi (even with pedal in front) was because I need the Soldano SLO also. Tried Friedman and Bogner and Mesa but just found out the Soldano saturation is what was calling to me all this time.

What I also have finally accepted, advice that I had stubbornly ignored for years, is the speaker and reverb/room sound is most important.
I was mistakenly trying every new modeler, firmware update, different manufacturer version of the same model etc and it was actually the stumbling randomly through the different speaker sim and reverb/room of all that that would eventually deliver something that satisfied.
So I got the Ox Stomp to test that theory and it proved true. I can take factory presets of any modeler, presets I hated even, and get inspiring tones.

so I prefer to have limits on parameters and countless models in favor of my core five amp models and a robust easy to navigate speaker/ cab sim, mic choices and reverb/ambience choices.

once I came to grips with this I started playing more and getting a much broader collection of sounds.
For example, UA Lion ‘68 is where I go for Marshall instead of Fractal. Yea I know, blasphemy…
However I quickly have so many more ‘favorite’ Marshall sounds now to inspire me than before. And the actual amp component is just 3 models, Super Lead, Super Bass and a Brown Plexi with the simple tone stack and bright switch parameters!

im sure there is nothing I’m getting that an experienced Fractal user can’t get. But for me the limits with the high quality core modeling are just what I needed to stay on task and out of the rabbit hole. The factory presets and James Santiago presets in the Lion ‘68 pedal represent much more usable tonal variation than all the Fractal options do. That’s just for me though, I understand it is not empirical evidence of one device being superior over another. I imagine many others have my same quirk for getting lost in option paralysis where others would feel extremely handicapped by my self imposed restriction.

Thus I’m not feeling qualified to really judge the value of any of the high end products other than for myself. And to say I hear great stuff and it is usually expensive to get to it. However getting all this by only using real amps would be ridiculously overpriced.

 

[ejecta]

It’s not restrictive if you’ve got an unlimited budget to buy a ton of stuff, but you’re not going to be able to dial in a chugga chugga metal tone out of a Fender Twin. Once you get into the multi-channel amps that try to over the most ground, there’s some concession/compromise made somewhere along the way. I can get a Mark IV/VII and cover a ton of ground, but it’s not going to cover the same ground an old Marshall or a 5150 would.

Yeah like I said I see where you’re coming from… I think we just view having lots of options as being something of value differently. Also I don’t think you have to buy a ton of gear to have a lot of flexibility when it comes to an analog gear rig. I have found having restrictions can greatly increase creativity and in more instances than not leads to what I consider better tone but as always YMMV

 

[Frodebro]

The market dictates the selling price-always. So if a product is truly overpriced, it will not sell and the manufacturer will have to correct the price. More often than not, when someone uses the term “overpriced” it has about as much value to me as when the word “overrated” is applied to an artist or band. That is a word used by people who think that their opinion is the only valid one, and I generally do not have much respect for that type of mindset.