Were they doing hybrid amps wrong the entire time?

[gy1900s]

Something I have noticed about running a hybrid set up with both valves and solid state tech being utilized is that a solid state preamp into a valve power amp seems to get much better results than any of those amps like the Marshall valvestate, Vox Valvetronix, Johnson Millennium etc that incorporated a valve in the preamp.

Been messing around a bit with my Boss IR-2 and TC Electronics deluxe 65 preamp pedals going into the return of the effects loop with several of my valve amps, and I have come to the conclusion that the"feel" of a tube amp that everyone likes to talk about comes from the power amp, not the preamp. I have yet to put either of these pedals into a valve power amp and not achieved "the feel" of a tube amp, much less the sound. Something else I have noticed is the the bigger the tubes, the more you get that "feel."

I'm telling you that $150 TC electronics 65 deluxe preamp pedal into the return of anything with 6L6 valves in it has sounded like a 65 deluxe.
With multiple amp sims, the Boss IR-2 into the return of my JCM-2000 sounds better for high gain tones than the actual JCM-2000 preamp does to my ears. Like, a lot better.

For you modeler guys, does sticking something like a Helix or a Tonemaster into the return of an effects loop on a valve amp or into the front of a Marshall mono-block before a cab change the"feel" of the modeler?

 

[Life Eats Life]

Yes, definately.

 

[Frodebro]

I did hundreds of bar gigs with a Peavey Rockmaster into a TubeWorks MosValve. I cannot say that I agree with the OP.

 

[unix-guy]

If the modeler is done right, it correctly models the power amp goodness. Feed that into a good, flat solid state power amp to cleanly reproduce the modeled sound.

I owned both a Johnson Millenium and an ART SGX-2000.

I don't believe the 12AX7 tube in either probably contributed much to the overall tone.

More likely helped with selling them

 

[gy1900s]

If the modeler is done right, it correctly models the power amp goodness. Feed that into a good, flat solid state power amp to cleanly reproduce the modeled sound.

I owned both a Johnson Millenium and an ART SGX-2000.

I don't believe the 12AX7 tube in either probably contributed much to the overall tone.

More likely helped with selling them

Which modeler? I've basically played them all in regards to the big boys. Yes, they sound legit, but that feel just isn't there for me, especially at high volume.

 

[RaceU4her]

dont really agree, ive tried running my vh140c and Randalls into tube amps and i like them more as they are.

 

[gy1900s]

I did hundreds of bar gigs with a Peavey Rockmaster into a TubeWorks MosValve. I cannot say that I agree with the OP.

I gig with mediocre sounding stuff all the time, out of convenience. My dad ran 65 what bandits for 3 decades.

Not saying that set up sounded bad, but did it sound as good as a modern day class-D preamp into a legit all valve power amp?

 

[gy1900s]

dont really agree, ive tried running my vh140c and Randalls into tube amps and i like them more as they are.

You probably just like that sound. This is all subjective, but a VH140 sound super solid state.

 

[RaceU4her]

You probably just like that sound. This is all subjective, but a VH140 sound super solid state.

You’re asking about the feel though, I don’t notice those amps being any more dynamic going to tubes, it just kind of slows down the response time and give them a weird mushy feel which I don’t care for.

 

[Alex Kenivel]

sound as good as a modern day class-D preamp

 

[unix-guy]

Which modeler? I've basically played them all in regards to the big boys. Yes, they sound legit, but that feel just isn't there for me, especially at high volume.

Fractal...

 

[gy1900s]

Fractal...

LOL.......haven't actually played that one.
I'll have to check it out.

 

[HotRats]

I tend to agree with the OP.

 

[laxu]

I'd say the issue was the design goals of those amps. A lot of those 1 preamp tube amps had the tube there for mostly marketing reasons rather than being a significant part of how the amps sounded.

Meanwhile solid-state poweramps are not built equal. Having a tube poweramp with a solid-state preamp was probably an easier way to make a good sounding amp.

For example BluGuitar in one of their live streams took the Bogner Mini amp, and plugged its fx send into the BluGuitar Amp 1 poweramp. What sounded like a shitty amp turned into something much better when used like that. It sounded a lot more like a real tube amp.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

All of these generalizations about an overall technology are a fools conversation. We get annoyed by companies making gear that is more marketing than product (see: loads of things that had a tube "in the preamp" that wasn't actually running at high voltage and wasn't functioning remotely like a traditional tube preamp gain stage because guitarists think a piece of technology is important rather than the design of each individual product). But this kind of "everything with a JFET input is inherently better" conversations are exactly why we wind up with spec-sheet products rather than well-designed, good-sounding products.

Played plenty of good and bad sounding rigs that were all-tube, hybrid in various ways be it digital-tube, solidstate-tube, tube-solidstate, digital-classD, all solid state, etc. The only real generalization I've come up with is: if the power amp is mostly there to make things louder rather than provide significant tonal shaping of its own, you best make sure its got a looooooooooot of headroom.

Also, pretty sure Class-D preamps are not a thing.

 

[gy1900s]

Also, pretty sure Class-D preamps are not a thing.

A class-D preamp is just a generic term for a digital preamp. It's not an actual class-D amp, which is analog. It's also an incorect term.

However, they did make legit class-D preamps for microphones at one point. Not sure what the reasoning was.

 

[la szum]

Marshall did the Hybrid thing first, as I recall. Mid 1980s, believe it or not. 3203 Artist Series.

Seriously great amps. Can find them for $500-$700 on the used market. Don't tell anyone.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

A class-D preamp is just a generic term for a digital preamp. It's not an actual class-D amp, which is analog. It's also an incorect term.

However, they did make legit class-D preamps for microphones at one point. Not sure what the reasoning was.

What is a digital preamp? If you're talking about a digital modeler, the part of that device that is actually boosting the signal up to line-ish level is analog circuitry. There is some digital processing along the way, but in terms of the part that can actually be called a "preamp" in those boxes...solid state analog.

Different modelers work differently - some model the amp with a cabinet load on the amp; others not so much; some allow a user to change and/or defeat the modeled cabinet load while others do not. All of which means that different modelers will work differently in different contexts and its really hard to make "generic" statements about "generic" digital modelers into various power amps/cabs.

 

[gy1900s]

What is a digital preamp?

It's not a real thing, which is why that's an incorrect term, technically speaking.
The term digital preamp or class-D preamp used to get thrown around a bit because the term class-D was often used incorrectly as a blanket term for digital amps. They did make some amps like those little super champs that had an all valve power amp, with a "digital preamp." Of couse this was just people not understanding how those amps actually worked. I was one of those people. I'm sure one of these tech guys can set the record straight on those types of amps, and what was really going on.

 

[AutomationBias]

The whole point of those was to make something cheap and reliable that they could label as a "tube amp".