Were they doing hybrid amps wrong the entire time?

[Boudoir Guitar]

The whole point of those was to make something cheap and reliable that they could label as a "tube amp".

Exactly. A Marshall Valvestate sounded the way it did because...it was a solid state preamp that had a single tube operating at low voltage into cheap solid state amps that didn't have a ton of headroom feeding a budget speaker. It's a sum of product design decisions, not "they shoulda put the tube in the power amp". If they put a tube in the power amp, implemented as poorly as they did the tube in the preamp, it would have sounded terrible.

Of course a modern digital modeler into the effects return of a a DSL2000 (likely driving a cab loaded with significantly better speakers than what was included in the Valvestate stuff) sounds better.

 

[RaceU4her]

Valvestates have produced some of my favorite metal tones ever, one of the last amps I still want

 

[DrewJD82]

A big thing I realized when running my Fractal gear into different power sections was that you can't just look at things in a "I want 100 watts of 6L6 tube power to run this JCM800 model into" way. When running different amp models (poweramp sims off) into my Electra Dyne's return, the majority needed heavy EQ to sound right.....but the Mesa models sounded fucking fantastic. When I ran them into my Shiva's return it was the same deal. My EVH 50-watt had the 'cleanest' power section of the 3 tube amps.

For jamming around in my apartment, I have my FM9 plugged into a Duncan powerstage powering a 2x12. It's not worth the effort of tweaking a model to work with a particular amp's power section. For playing live I have my FM9 in 4-cable method with the EVH head specifically because I want a tube power section live and the EVH head works great for what I'm doing, but ideally I'd be running into a very clean, tube power amp and not a return of any amp.

 

[maggotspawn]

I have a Kartakou Collossus tube preamp running into a Art SLA-1 SS power amp.
The Kartakou is based on a 5150. Sounds killer. Probably because 5150's tone are mostly preamp.

 

[AutomationBias]

Valvestates have produced some of my favorite metal tones ever, one of the last amps I still want

I wonder how much of that is studio magic? I had the 100 watt Valvestate head when I was a kid and it was pretty thin sounding. When I finally got a JCM 800 it was like a night and day difference.

 

[RaceU4her]

I wonder how much of that is studio magic? I had the 100 watt Valvestate head when I was a kid and it was pretty thin sounding. When I finally got a JCM 800 it was like a night and day difference.

i dont think too much, they always did fine live with the bands that used them, i think id actually pick it in this comparison with the big boys

 

[GuitarBilly74]

I've seen good and bad examples in both directions (tube pre/SS power and vice-versa).
Like anything, it's more about the quality of the design.

 

[EOengineer]

It’s not JUST the tube power amp that creates the lively response, it’s the way the cab interacts with the power amp.

Blug and others have been using the valve reactor approach where they use a small tube to preserve some of that interaction and IMO it produces very convincing results.

The fact someone hasn’t developed this further into a series of small portable power amps (modelers? Hello? Bueller??) has me considering getting off my dumb ass and trying to figure it out.

 

[gy1900s]

i dont think too much, they always did fine live with the bands that used them, i think id actually pick it in this comparison with the big boys

The valvestate is by far my least favorite tone out of these amps. It's actually a great sounding amp, but I just don't care for that tone. It's too brittle/harsh for me.

Surprisingly though, I did prefer the tone of that mode 4 hybrid over the JCM 900 and JCM 2000 because of the way it held together better, and it didn't have the harshness of the valvestate to my ears. One thing that I remember about the mode 4 is that it's a realy great bass head if you like distorted bass tones. I want to say that the bass palyer for sytem of a down recorded some tracks with one. I also new a guy that gigged one of those with a Hartke 2x15 on it's side. They even lined up perfectly. That unusable guitar channel had just a stupid amount of low end with a 350 watt power amp. Makes sense that it would work well as a bass amp. he used the 4 channel footswitch and an octave pedal. He also used a 3/4 scale bass like that guy for Royal blood. If his band would have had a real singer instead of just some screamer that couldn't sing a note, I could have seen that band doing something. It was a Metal band with a drummer, a Bass player, a singer, and a DJ/synth player. The singer was terrible though. He would try to actually sing or do hip hop type vocals, but it was cringe when he did. They needed to move on.

 

[Desertdweller]

Something I have noticed about running a hybrid set up with both valves and solid state tech being utilized is that a solid state preamp into a valve power amp seems to get much better results than any of those amps like the Marshall valvestate, Vox Valvetronix, Johnson Millennium etc that incorporated a valve in the preamp.

Yes exactly. That's why a lot of us old timers that played in the 90s and 2000s had solid state preamps going into tube power amps. You could get absolutely huge sounds this way. I ran a Rocktron Chameleon into a 2:90 for over a decade with great results.

 

[gy1900s]

Yes exactly. That's why a lot of us old timers that played in the 90s and 2000s had solid state preamps going into tube power amps. You could get absolutely huge sounds this way. I ran a Rocktron Chameleon into a 2:90 for over a decade with great results.

View attachment 28255

Old timer? Millennials and the younger gen-xers were running the rock scene in the 90's and 2000's .
I don't know if you can be considered an old timer if you weren't gigging in the 70's on this forum LOL. I played my first show in 93, and I'm but a spring chicken around here....

 

[Desertdweller]

Old timer? Millennials and the younger gen-xers were running the rock scene in the 90's and 2000's .
I don't know if you can be considered an old timer if you weren't gigging in the 70's on this forum LOL. I played my first show in 93, and I'm but a spring chicken around here....

Yep that’s me, Oregon Trail generation

It is pitch black, you are likely to be eaten by a Grue.

 

[HomespunEffects]

Weren't some of the Music Man amps from the 70s solid state preamp with tube based power amps? Ugh they were awful.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

Peavey did a whole bunch (VT-something or other?) I saw one not too long ago in a shop that had more 6L6s than I could count. Dirt sounded like garbage. Cleans were fine.

 

[gy1900s]

Yep that’s me, Oregon Trail generation

It is pitch black, you are likely to be eaten by a Grue.

I was more of a Dragon Warrior kid....

"A slime attacks!"

 

[Desertdweller]

I was more of a Dragon Warrior kid....

"A slime attacks!"

Yup I grew up on the NES!

 

[HotRats]

Weren't some of the Music Man amps from the 70s solid state preamp with tube based power amps? Ugh they were awful.

My amp broke last minute before a gig and a friend of mine borrowed me his music man for the night.

I hated it with all myself.

 

[HotRats]

It’s not JUST the tube power amp that creates the lively response, it’s the way the cab interacts with the power amp.
.

I have no data to backup this idea but my personal experience tell me the same thing.

 

[EOengineer]

I have no data to backup this idea but my personal experience tell me the same thing.

As far as I know this is a well established fact. Hook the same head up to a couple different cabs with different speaker configurations and the amp response can change dramatically.

 

[nightlight]

I have limited experience with solid state into tube power amps, but I do have a Fryette PS-2 that I run my modellers into some time. Sounds super cool, especially with a good cab.

That said, I don't think we can make blanket statements like this. For example, the Valvestate 8100 was used on a tonne of Death recordings and sounds so good. Just check out the later albums like Symbolic and The Sound of Perseverance. Awesome tone, imho.