Want to add a recording tool, PS2A for my many tube amps...FM3...HX Stomp...decisions decisions - Opinions Please

[Lysander]

Never sell the Stomp!

It's but a rite of passage now. A painful experience we all go through, to emerge as a better person at the end.

 

[Riffraff]

I don't know which reaction to use on this post

FM is for me much more plug and play, as far as amp tones go. Stomp is a bit easier to dive into, editing on unit. FWIW; Native to me is NOT a good barometer for how much you will or won't like Helix. Interface and input levels are HUGELY important with Native and that in turn can lead to some "false" perceptions on how much a person will or will not like the Helix hardware. IMO, at least. Good luck with the computer and diaper rash cream

Sometimes you find yourself in a situation where the right thing isn't available and you need to come up with a MacGyver work around.

 

[Riffraff]

Man, I was all ready to suggest the PS, but I think these guys are correct, might be a better, easier, quicker, cleaner option to have a modeling unit all plugged in, use the editor and have at it.

I'm definitely getting a Power Station too. It's time to upgrade my antiquated attenuators. I'll just flip them and some other gear I don't use anymore to cover it. I've got a lot of that laying around.

 

[JT]

I'm definitely getting a Power Station too. It's time to upgrade my antiquated attenuators. I'll just flip them and some other gear I don't use anymore to cover it. I've got a lot of that laying around.

This is probably the best way for you to go. Other stuff is always nice but knowing what you want but buying everything else is always frustrating.

 

[Will Chen]

I own the Stomp and FM3, really it's all about budgets here. Before I go any further, my personal usage for guitar tones is 100% FM3 with the stomp set up with my SY-200. I'd take these things into consideration:

1. The FM3 isn't anywhere near as hard to dial in as some make it sound, it's just way deeper. I like a lot of control over my sound and even I rarely venture beyond the input/output EQ blocks and matching the Impedance Curve with my IR choices. The Amp "Tone" page is pretty much like dialing in a real amp, stick to that and the amp block is dead simple.

2. While Line 6 has a rep for being easier to dial in, you have to use more blocks to get the same result. For example, want a tubscreamer set for a clean boost into a 5150 with an EQ to add back some lows post preamp? 3 blocks on an HX Stomp vs the single amp block on the FM3. Given the limited blocks on the Stomp, you're run out of real estate pretty quickly if you want highly customized response from the amp block.

3. Conversely, Line 6's approach in effects is largely to mimic their real world counterparts. You want a Phase 90? Load up the Script Mod Phase, done. Controls should be immediately familiar, Line 6 even gives you additional mix and level controls. FM3, load up Phaser block and select the type Script 90...however there is no simplified interface like with amps. Now...looking at things for 2 seconds it should be obvious that the rate control is really all you need to touch but, there's a lot exposed here. If you want more accurate, and limited, modeled effects controls Line 6 wins here for sure.

4. The new Line 6 cab block from a usability perspective is world's ahead of Fractals file management IR system. Fractal is reportedly working on a similar UI, but no idea when it will be released.

5. From a processing power perspective, really the FM3 blows the stomp out of the water. But again, the power only matters if you use it. I could definitely get by with the Stomp especially recording as each patch can be purpose built to a single sound, no real need to have any extra stuff which isn't immediately used. I just prefer the FM3 in this scenario to be able to build out all the different sounds I need for a song in a single preset.

 

[Foxmeister]

If you want more accurate, and limited, modeled effects controls Line 6 wins here for sure.

I agree with this statement except for when it comes to drives - I significantly preferred the HX drives over the Fractal's, and they are also functionally "more complete", as they give you all the controls and switches that the real pedal would give you, whereas Fractal often relies on separate models.

 

[Will Chen]

I agree with this statement except for when it comes to drives - I significantly preferred the HX drives over the Fractal's, and they are also functionally "more complete", as they give you all the controls and switches that the real pedal would give you, whereas Fractal often relies on separate models.

Limited in terms of limited to the original device's controls. Fractal drives do have a "basic" page but the controls are limited to drive and some variant of tone control, a far cry from many modern drives, the KoT model differences between units is probably the example you're specifically referring to (though there are several), no question Line 6 is more faithful to the controls my a mile and the Fractal is more limited.

However, you get 3 more pages of parameters to fine tune the response. You can essentially virtually mod drive pedals on the FM3, you can't on Line 6 products. For example, what to change the type and number of clipping diodes? Want to add a pre or post EQ? change the frequency of the mid range control? FM3 offers depth like that. Whether one wants to do that or not is up to the individual.

I should add...if I was using a real amp and just wanted a MFX pedal to add a few odds and ends, the Stomp would be my choice and probably the best option on the market. But for an all in one direct recording device, I prefer the FM3.

 

[Foxmeister]

However, you get 3 more pages of parameters to fine tune the response. You can essentially virtually mod drive pedals on the FM3, you can't on Line 6 products. For example, what to change the type and number of clipping diodes? Want to add a pre or post EQ? change the frequency of the mid range control? FM3 offers depth like that. Whether one wants to do that or not is up to the individual.

And therein lies my issue - I want a model of a pedal to be like that pedal. Fractal gets you some of the way there, but then becomes a "build-your-own" pedal toolkit, which is a step too far *for my liking*.

With the Helix, if I take something like the KoT, or the Timmy, it is all there laid out for me, just like the real pedal - I choose the KoT and the Timmy in particular because I think the Helix implementation of these two particular pedals is significantly better than the way Fractal implements them. I would have liked the Fractal's drives to have all the controls and switches, and then additionally have all the "deep dive" stuff for endless tweakability.

I should say though that before I owned any Fractal products, I really thought I would be into swapping around tube types and capacitor values, but when push comes to shove, I really couldn't be bothered with it as any changes I made were usually very subtle.

As you say though, this is all down to the individual, and despite my preference for Helix, I would happily concede that Fractal is most complete and fully featured modeller on the market.

 

[signalpath]

If you intend to use the FM3 for USB recording be aware that you will have to deal with Latency Compensation Measurement. The issue has been fixed for the Axe-FX III and FM9 but not the FM3 which for the life of me I just don’t understand.

 

[Sascha Franck]

@Riffraff, what kinda sounds do you need from any such a unit? In case it's just amp sounds, you can get, say, a Strymon Iridium. Pretty much zero of a learning curve. Similar for an Atomic Amplifirebox - possibly a better choice than the Iridium but careful with that company.
As you've got your interface and DAW set up already, you wouldn't need an onboard interface and external FX, all you'd likely need is some stompbox collection (which you probably already have). I'm recording just that way and it's perfect for me. Enjoying it much more than the Helix Floor (which I had before) and while I still own an HX Stomp, it doesn't see much (if any) use in my recording setup, it's basically 95% Amplifirebox with some assorted stompbox stuff in front, all reverb/delay FX coming from the DAW (I'm monitoring the dry signal, though, just mix the FX signal in, that way I don't have to deal with latency issues). Really, I absolutely enjoy the tactile feel of having all relevant parameters exposed next to me, pretty much no need to ever reach for an editor. Makes me work much much faster.

 

[Will Chen]

I choose the KoT and the Timmy in particular because I think the Helix implementation of these two particular pedals is significantly better than the way Fractal implements them. I would have liked the Fractal's drives to have all the controls and switches, and then additionally have all the "deep dive" stuff for endless tweakability.

I should say though that before I owned any Fractal products, I really thought I would be into swapping around tube types and capacitor values, but when push comes to shove, I really couldn't be bothered with it as any changes I made were usually very subtle.

I agree with the first point. Though honestly, I don't use a single drive model in any of my presets.

The 2nd...I don't switch out tube types, but I nearly always fine tune the input EQ on mid to higher gain models and often adjust the Dynamics page for mid to lower gain stuff. Mild changes on the Speaker page sometimes as well. Once I had access to that type of stuff, the Stomp just doesn't quite get there for me.

Different strokes, different folks. No wrong or right here, but for me personally I'm always going to err on the side of too much control as I can ignore what I don't use.

 

[Will Chen]

If you intend to use the FM3 for USB recording be aware that you will have to deal with Latency Compensation Measurement. The issue has been fixed for the Axe-FX III and FM9 but not the FM3 which for the life of me I just don’t understand.

This. 100% this. 5 or 6 times I thought I had t worked out, only to take a day and come back and tracks were out of synch again. I just use a Focusrite interface now. The HX Stomp is way better in terms of being an interface, if that's important to you absolutely keep this in mind.

 

[paisleywookiee]

If you intend to use the FM3 for USB recording be aware that you will have to deal with Latency Compensation Measurement. The issue has been fixed for the Axe-FX III and FM9 but not the FM3 which for the life of me I just don’t understand.

Selfishly I’m happy they’ve fixed it on the FM9, since that’s what I’ve got.

 

[signalpath]

Selfishly I’m happy they’ve fixed it on the FM9, since that’s what I’ve got.

In the FAS forum latency compensation thread it is suggested that anyone who is recording is going to use the III or FM9 anyway. Which is pretty standard for the cavalier attitude often of on display in the forum. I’m not taking away from the quality of the modelling and effects as I see them as second to none.

But … This is direct from the FAS description of the FM3 feature set

• 4×4 USB Audio

which in my estimation given the FM3’s current shortcomings plays fast and loose with the facts. To top it off you can probably pick up a Chinese modeller at a quarter the cost that delivers the goods when it comes to using it as a USB interface. As I said, I just don’t understand it.

 

[paisleywookiee]

In the FAS forum latency compensation thread it is suggested that anyone who is recording is going to use the III or FM9 anyway. Which is pretty standard for the cavalier attitude often of on display in the forum. I’m not taking away from the quality of the modelling and effects as I see them as second to none.

But … This is direct from the FAS description of the FM3 feature set

• 4×4 USB Audio

which in my estimation given the FM3’s current shortcomings plays fast and loose with the facts. To top it off you can probably pick up a Chinese modeller at a quarter the cost that delivers the goods when it comes to using it as a USB interface. As I said, I just don’t understand it.

Oh yeah man, I agree completely. I had the FM3 (three times, actually) and it was frustrating, but the responses to the issue were even more frustrating. So I sympathize.

 

[Sascha Franck]

To top it off you can probably pick up a Chinese modeller at a quarter the cost that delivers the goods when it comes to using it as a USB interface. As I said, I just don’t understand it.

Same story as usual. It's cheap. I mean, look at the Helix. Could be an excellent "studio central". But it's all shabby. Cheapest mic preamp, cheapest interface (and worst of its class when it comes to latency). Why would FAS do it any differently on their "entry level" device?

 

[ax84ch]

I don't understand the planet I'm on where someone thinks the stomp UI is easier than the fm3. I guess it is just a testiminial that you can get used to either where they become second nature. Fm3 is stupid easy from the front panel to me.

Fm3 costs more but does a universe more stuff... If you need any of the other stuff. Stomp is nice and small but the price has really crept up so that they aren't particularly inexpensive and they are fairly limited.

I think the stomp might be at least good in front of a tube amp though. The fm3 is hissy unless you engage the boost/pad feature and then you eat up the output headroom. I gave up trying to use it as any kind of boost with a real amp. Lots of people find it fine for that application though.

Both of these units have a universe of effects that Tonex doesn't have. I'd say Tonex plus rather than Tonex instead.

For your tube amps, fractals xload is worth considering. It sounds great. I sold my ps2 and have been using the xload with my fractal and solid state power amp and really haven't missed the ps2 at all. Just another option. I pretty much run my tube amps into the xload all the time now. Theoretically, the ps2 can also be a power amp for preamp that you may have but that was probably my least favorite application of it. It was great to make tube amps louder or quieter though.

 

[ax84ch]

Oh yeah man, I agree completely. I had the FM3 (three times, actually) and it was frustrating, but the responses to the issue were even more frustrating. So I sympathize.

I agree with this. Quite often, people just want to argue about whether or not you're just stupid when you have an issue. The fm3 is very much the stepchild.

 

[ragingplatypi]

I just listed my Stomp if you want to give it a go, Riff \m/

You broke the first rule of Stomp Club!

 

[ragingplatypi]

I have a big birthday coming up in May and naturally I want to use that to justify another new gear purchase.

I never play out anymore. I have way too much s**t on my plate with my job & home life so I'm recording and swapping tracks with other players via social media jam websites to collaborate on tunes for the fun of it. I typically have an hour to 90 minutes of free time for this early in the morning and that's it.

When using a tube amp I connect to either a THD Hot Plate or Mass 100, run the line out to my interface and use cab IR's & effects plugins. I've been pretty happy with that but there are a couple of issues. My Hot Plate is obviously single impedance so I tend to use the Mass a lot more because of the variety of amps I have. The Mass can't quite handle my Bassman when doing full attenuation. I installed a variable bias mod in it and biased it for 5881's but it's still a hair too much for the Mass if I really push it.

My first thought is ditch my existing attenuators and get the Power Station I've always wanted...probably the PS2A. It would be an awesome addition that would solve my current attenuator issues and give me the ability to use any amp in my collection, even the really quirky vintage amps if I want to in a jam session with friends (which almost never happens). But does it do enough for me? Fixing a problem isn't as exciting as other options.

It's a bit time consuming to break out an amp, connect everything, dial it in with a cab IR and then get to work. I've never been a modeling guy but they are light years better these days and honestly seem to be the best solution for my time shortage issue and could provide a boat load fun.

I don't really have a budget limit but I also don't need to grossly overspend on my dorky web jam & Youtube page habit either. I'm considering the Fractal FM3 or the HX Stomp.

Give me some opinions on this bros.

As someone with similar time constraints, I think that’s your biggest issue over tones. I have a friend who likes to jam online with Sonobus, but set up and tear down eat away at over 30 minutes of the precious little time I have.

For that reason I keep teetering on getting a larger unit where I just plug in power, guitar and headphones and be done with it.
Until then, I’m giving up on having the Stomp on a desk, and I’m just wiring everything up on a pedalboard and I’ll just drag that wherever I need it.