Tube amps that need a master volume

[nightlight]

I'd love to hear what you guys think.

I was messing around with a Sig:X today and got a noise complaint from within the house. I hadn't even cranked the thing, I think the channel volume was between 7 and 8 o'clock.

Now, this is an amp that demands to be played loud to get all the girth and power possible. It has three independent channel volumes, but no master volume.

The only way I could open it up was to hook it to a Fryette PS-2, which I'm so glad to have. That at least allows me to push the power amp and get some tube saturation and balls.

But a dedicated master volume would require one less piece of equipment to hook up or cart around.

It"s a complete contrast from the Victory Kraken I have. That amp has two channel volumes and does not require you to rattle windows and furniture in order to get some good tones out of it.

 

[Frodebro]

Some amps do well at low volumes, some don’t. Not much more to say about that.

 

[Chocol8]

It depends on the amp design. If the distortion and character of the amp all comes from the pre-amp stage a MV will work. If not, they are a compromise, and usually not a good one. You are better off using a GOOD attenuator, the PS2 etc.

There is almost always a good reason the original designer didn't put a MV on.

 

[newholland]

i cant even imagine my mark iib without a master volume.
id be in jail right now.

 

[paisleywookiee]

got a noise complaint from within the house.

I found the problem.

 

[nightlight]

It depends on the amp design. If the distortion and character of the amp all comes from the pre-amp stage a MV will work. If not, they are a compromise, and usually not a good one. You are better off using a GOOD attenuator, the PS2 etc.

There is almost always a good reason the original designer didn't put a MV on.

You have that backward. Master volumes work best wity amps that rely on the power section for tone. This is why products like the PS-2 are in demand.

I found the problem.

Love the preaching from up high. Would a volume complaint from the neighbours satisfy you?

Like literally thousands of people have this problem. Go back on the high horse you rode in on.

Some amps do well at low volumes, some don’t. Not much more to say about that.

A master volume allows you to get power amp saturation/distortion going. Some amps get their characteristic tone like that.

Not much more to say, but I am genuinely surprised by the forum's reaction/lack of knowledge. I guess it's why digital and modelling is the main draw here.

 

[paisleywookiee]

Love the preaching from up high. Would a volume complaint from the neighbours satisfy you?

Lighten up, Francis. It was a joke.

 

[newholland]

I found the problem.

i actually did laugh aloud at this.

 

[paisleywookiee]

i actually did laugh aloud at this.

I mean, I chuckled when I posted it too, but I guess everyone doesn't get my sense of humor.

 

[laxu]

It looks like the Sig:X has an fx loop level control on the back. Set the loop to series, connect a patch cable to it and use the loop level as a global master volume.

 

[laxu]

A master volume allows you to get power amp saturation/distortion going. Some amps get their characteristic tone like that.

A master volume - whether it's just a channel volume or a global master affecting all channels, is literally just a pot in a specific part of the signal flow. While there are some different designs for e.g post-phase inverter master volumes that work better with some amps than others, for anything more modern it's usually a plain old pre-PI master.

Your Sig:X clean channel is basically a non-master volume channel. It just has a gain control relabeled as volume. Crank that, and it may overdrive the poweramp, but it doesn't have enough preamp gain to drive it much.

IMO Fryette's designs do not benefit from poweramp distortion anyway. All the good stuff is just because it's louder.

 

[la szum]

I'd love to hear what you guys think.

I was messing around with a Sig:X today and got a noise complaint from within the house. I hadn't even cranked the thing, I think the channel volume was between 7 and 8 o'clock.

Now, this is an amp that demands to be played loud to get all the girth and power possible. It has three independent channel volumes, but no master volume.

The only way I could open it up was to hook it to a Fryette PS-2, which I'm so glad to have. That at least allows me to push the power amp and get some tube saturation and balls.

But a dedicated master volume would require one less piece of equipment to hook up or cart around.

It"s a complete contrast from the Victory Kraken I have. That amp has two channel volumes and does not require you to rattle windows and furniture in order to get some good tones out of it.

You should contact Stephen and tell him he left something out and the amp is incomplete as is.

 

[Chocol8]

You have that backward. Master volumes work best wity amps that rely on the power section for tone. This is why products like the PS-2 are in demand.

No, I don't have it backwards. Master volumes come before the power tubes and the OT. Turning one down will reduce power tube distortion and transformer saturation. Always. A post phase inverter design will also mess with your negative feedback. A pre phase inverter MV will mess with any phase inverter distortion.

On a LOT of non MV designs the PI, power tubes and OT are a big part of the overdriven behavior of the amp. You do not want to add a MV to any of these designs although some builders now do because stupid uneducated consumers think it is a good idea to have one.

 

[SillyOctpuss]

Love the preaching from up high. Would a volume complaint from the neighbours satisfy you?

Like literally thousands of people have this problem. Go back on the high horse you rode in on.

 

[Humbug]

I'd love to hear what you guys think.

I was messing around with a Sig:X today and got a noise complaint from within the house. I hadn't even cranked the thing, I think the channel volume was between 7 and 8 o'clock.

Now, this is an amp that demands to be played loud to get all the girth and power possible. It has three independent channel volumes, but no master volume.

The only way I could open it up was to hook it to a Fryette PS-2, which I'm so glad to have. That at least allows me to push the power amp and get some tube saturation and balls.

But a dedicated master volume would require one less piece of equipment to hook up or cart around.

A load box is a good compromise if you want to play a tube amp at "bedroom levels" anyway. Very few, if any, amps sound and feel right with the master volume turned way down.

And the "channel" volume on your amp probably is exactly the same as a "master" volume, just separate for each channel.

 

[Frodebro]

A master volume allows you to get power amp saturation/distortion going. Some amps get their characteristic tone like that.

Not much more to say, but I am genuinely surprised by the forum's reaction/lack of knowledge. I guess it's why digital and modelling is the main draw here.

A master volume is part of the preamp circuit and controls the signal hitting the input of the power section. If you want to get power stage saturation with a master volume amp, that master volume knob needs to be up all the way.

To get power stage saturation requires signal reduction at the output of the power amp, not the input.

 

[James Freeman]

All amps need a master volume, no exception.

 

[Orvillain]

Use a modeller and headphones.

 

[laxu]

On a LOT of non MV designs the PI, power tubes and OT are a big part of the overdriven behavior of the amp. You do not want to add a MV to any of these designs although some builders now do because stupid uneducated consumers think it is a good idea to have one.

I think that's a big overstatement.



Here you can hear the Friedman Plex with its (afaik PPIMV) turned down. Soundwise it just gets cleaner sounding, less "raw" sounding. Does the fully cranked setting sound better? Yeah, but the MV is still a usable option if it gets you to a palatable volume level without involving expensive attenuators.

I think more modern amp designs can also be voiced to sound like those classic amps without ever involving poweramp distortion.

When I had the Vox-based Victory VC35, I also tested the poweramp distortion by running it into a Fryette PS-2. Guess what was needed to replicate that behavior surprisingly well? A Dynacomp pedal up front to add some compression, and turning the amp's preamp gain up by a few notches! It was so close to its cranked sound/feel while still using its master volume to reduce volume.

 

[Alex Kenivel]

My EVH Stealth would benefit from having one, with its three seperate channel volumes, two of which are on a concentric pot. It would be nice to set all three of them up and then have one overall Master Control