Theory Question (Chord Progression)

[Sascha Franck]

Of course it does. It’s a major triad with a dominant 7th and a sharp 9th added.

Well, I know what it is.
Whatever, can you show me a voicing including both the 5th and #9 that's not sounding like belonging to the HT/WT scale?

 

[Sascha Franck]

Alright, fwiw, in this context (read: along with the other chords), I'd rather treat the C7#9 as something bluesy, too. Altered just doesn't match. So yeah, you're at least sorta right @metropolis_4 - I just don't agree on the major triad being suitable, to me everything sounds more akin towards minor.

 

[metropolis_4]

Well, I know what it is.
Whatever, can you show me a voicing including both the 5th and #9 that's not sounding like belonging to the HT/WT scale?

Depends on the context, but personally I like these two:

0   X
1   8
0   8
1   8
1   7
X   8

To my ear the #9 and major 3rd are the more dissonant interval and the trickier one to voice.

If you leave out the 3rd this is a voicing with both the 5th and #9:

3
4
3
5
3
X

 

[Sascha Franck]

Depends on the context, but personally I like these two:

I think there's little occasions when the first one would fit, due to the very noticeable b9 dissonance.
Second one is fine.

If you leave out the 3rd this is a voicing with both the 5th and #9:

That's no #9 chord anymore but Cm7.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Fwiw, a C7#9 rendition including the 5th I'm occasionally using:
-3-
-4-
-3-
-2-
-(3)-
-x-
Has quite some dissonant character to it, though, so in the context of the thread's progression (which, at least as far as the other 3 chords are concerned, sounds rather consonant) it might not work.

 

[metropolis_4]

That's no #9 chord anymore but Cm7.

Not necessarily, it all depends on context and the harmonic role it’s playing in the progression.
Played over a C minor it’s adding a 7 spelling Cm7

Cm7  Ab  Bb  Eb
3    x   x   x
4    4   6   8
3    5   7   8
5    6   8   8
3    6   5   6
x    x   x   x

Played over a C major it’s adding a 7 and a #9 spelling C7#9

Am7  C7#9  Gmaj7
5    3     2
5    4     3
5    3     4
5    5     4
x    3     x
5    x     3

Or it could be used as a D#6

E#  D#6  A#maj7
5   3    x
6   4    6
5   3    7
7   5    7
8   3    x
x   x    6

 

[Sascha Franck]

Not necessarily, it all depends on context and the harmonic role it’s playing in the progression.

Well, in the context of #9 chord you're pretty much forced to play a major 3rd. A matter of hearing psychology.
The only exeption being an extremely prominently voiced major third from another instrument.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Whatever, as long as the OP-er doesn't chime in, it might not be worth discussing harmonic finetunings in this very thread.
Anyhow, based on the information available so far, I recorded a little mockup. Nothing serious, all done in 5 minutes or so...

 

[mavrick102000]

To my ears, in this context, C7#9 comes across more minor-ish.

Yes definitely more minor-ish to the ear. Playing with some ideas in Cmin, C Mixolydian work well. Now to expand beyond that and another short chord progression to try an make it more into a song.

It's more in the Funk, Scofield MMW sort of feel. Now to determine how to best play it to where a keyboard doesn't overstep the walking bass notes, or only have one instrument play them at a time alternating turns.

Most likely if I can get the keys feeling right, I'll keep the chord stabs on the guitar until I try to do some melody ideas.

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

II7#9(VofV) V I IV
II7#9(VofV) V I vi
II7#9(VofV) V iii vi
IV7#9 bVII bVI i
V7#9 I7 bVII ii
All of them are viable with the given information.

C7#9 in CST is also customarily treated as HM5#9 as in Harmonic Minor mode V (Phryg Dom) plus the #9. Works cause the V in harm. Min. IS 7b9 And the next higher extension is a whole step above (#9)

Or see it as part of F Bebop scale...
f G a Bb C d Eb(D#) E

Or as 3 chord in Ab Harmonic Major (Ionian b6)
ab Bb C dB Eb(#D) Fb(E) G

 

[Bruce]

Of course it does. It’s a major triad with a dominant 7th and a sharp 9th added.

The way you choose to voice a chord in a performance doesn’t define its actual structure. If you choose to not play the 5th when you play the chord it doesn’t mean the chord doesn’t have a 5th.

This. Us guitar players tend to play the “Hendrix chord” in one particular voicing which omits the 5th. Doesn’t mean it does not exist in the chord. The limitations of the guitar cause us to leave out all sorts of stuff, which is arguably some of the beauty of the guitar approach.

 

[Bruce]

I found this interesting.
Not helpful in the discussion though

He’s just so……good. Saw him and a local colleague of mine do a duo in a restaurant in NJ. Amazing musicianship.

 

[synthpenguin]

I came up with a chord progression some time ago, and I'm trying to go back to some basic theory (never entirely learned) to figure out where to further develop the idea into a song.

The chords: C7#9, A aug (diatonic no 3rd, F/A), G aug (diatonic no 3rd, Eb/G), Gm7 - with a funk/fusion groove type feel.

Is it correct labeling this progression as key of Cm with the chords above being 1, VI, V, V7?

Do walking bass line notes leading into chord stabs indicate anything for the key/progression or just treated as approaching notes leading into a chord stab?

I'm probably overthinking it (and definitely need more coffee)

I didn't read the rest of the thread, but looking at the OP quickly, I'd read this pretty clearly as G minor with nothing fancy really.

The tl;dr on how I'd read the chords is C7#9 - F - Eb - Gm7 (or IV7#9 - VII - VI - im7 ). Makes me think of the sort of chord progression you'd find in the old Sonic VGM

The first chord is a major IV, which is a very common alteration (raising the third of the minor iv) in minor funk and blues contexts, especially with that b7 extension.

For the two middle "chords" ("A aug with no 3rd" and "G aug with no 3rd"), you could see them as A and G augmented fifth dyads, and I'd MAYBE interpret them that way if there's a bass instrument or keyboard solidifying those A and G roots.. but in a vacuum, I'd read them as inverted F and Eb major third dyads—but really just implying the full major F and Eb chords (after all, dropping the fifth from a chord isn't exactly uncommon!).

So, yeah, I'd read it as...

C7#9 - F - Eb - Gm7

-or-

IV7#9 - VII - VI - im7

If you wanted to write out the chords for a lead sheet, but notate the moving bassline you've described, you could write it as:

C7#9 - F/A - Eb/G - Gm7

( "F/A" is a slash chord, which basically just means "F chord over an A note". )

If you specifically do not want the fifth in those two slash chords, you could write...

C7#9 - F(no5)/A - Eb(no5)/G - Gm7

Though generally you'd really only want to get that specific with a lead sheet if that is very important (e.g. if leaving the fifth in will clash), as it gets clumsy and hard to read very quickly, and lead sheets are overall just intended to describe the chord for the player to then voice themselves. If you're just describing the chord voicing and need to get that specific, you're probably better using another form of notation.

[also, if you really want to read those two middle chords as augmented fifth dyads, you could write them as A5+ and G5+ I suppose? It's not typical though]

Overall, I think this progression is basically diatonic and rather simple (not in a bad way!), and that looking at it that way will get the best feel, especially for a funk context. I'd just approach it as Gm while making sure to hit that major third chord tone on the IV7.

 

[synthpenguin]

Yes definitely more minor-ish to the ear. Playing with some ideas in Cmin, C Mixolydian work well. Now to expand beyond that and another short chord progression to try an make it more into a song.

It's more in the Funk, Scofield MMW sort of feel. Now to determine how to best play it to where a keyboard doesn't overstep the walking bass notes, or only have one instrument play them at a time alternating turns.

Most likely if I can get the keys feeling right, I'll keep the chord stabs on the guitar until I try to do some melody ideas.

If you wanted to approach it in this chord-scale way, well neither C minor nor C Mixolydian convey the entire sound of the chord. The so-called "Mixolydian Blues scale" / "Mixo-Blues scale" is historically a common approach in jazz over this sort of chord, but I don't think most players who used / use it actually call it that. It's just a Mixolydian with a b3 and b5 added (1-2-b3-3-4-b5-5-6-b7)—a Mixolydian with "blue notes" added.

Alternatively, you could just use a major blues scale and add a b7 (1-2-b3-3-5-6-b7), which would be extremely simple to figure out on guitar without worrying much about learning new shapes.

Both of these approaches would encourage perception of that #9 as a b3 and reinforce a bluesy "major/minor" sound though, which may not be the feel you want. Dropping the natural 2 would help in that regard.

Also, it's useful to remember that a scale is just a horizontal version of a chord. So if you're having trouble figuring out what additional notes besides the chord tones you already have will give the right vibe, try voicing the chord on the piano and keep adding extensions to see what sounds right ("right" meaning what gives you the sound you want in context, not just what sounds good in a vacuum).

For example, if you voice the C7#9, you already have the notes C - E - G - Bb - D# [*see note below].

Now add an F# on top... how's that? If not that, try an F. But let's say F#.

Now add the next extension... what about an A? If not that, try an Ab. But I think A sounds better.

Okay, so now we have the chord C - E - G - Bb - D# - F# - A.

Fold that down into one octave and we have the scale C - D# - E - F# - G - A - Bb. It's basically the "Mixo-Blues scale" without the natural 2 or 4... but honestly that doesn't really matter haha. It's the "horizontal" version of this chord. You can play all of those notes one at a time, without the underlying chord being played, and it will spell out that harmony.

[*I am mixing flats and sharps here for clarity in the context of the chord, making sure to highlight the b7 and #2 both, but I would probably spell this a bit differently otherwise]

All that said, I wouldn't approach it this way, not in a funk / fusion sort of context. From my POV, all of this complexity is already contained within viewing the passage as G minor, and then plus the added chord tones over that chord IV7#9 chord (and also thinking about those nice leading tones into the VII!), so I would personally take that approach :) But whatever works, however you get there, is great!

Anyway, I didn't proofread this, so hopefully it makes sense haha. Good luck!

 

[mavrick102000]

I really appreciate everyone's input into this. I only have some fuzzy basic theory. You've all given me some ideas of things to work on.

Synth Penguin - Agreed using the piano to work out some ideas. It's easier for me to "see" where to go because of the layout- probably also because I learned piano mostly by reading sheet music, unlike guitar ~90-ish% ear,~10% tablature once it existed.

I'll have a midi controller for Christmas, and I should be able to teach myself how to read again in a month or so and then I can hopefully work some of these ideas out a bit better.

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

Fwiw, a C7#9 rendition including the 5th I'm occasionally using:
-3-
-4-
-3-
-2-
-(3)-
-x-
Has quite some dissonant character to it, though, so in the context of the thread's progression (which, at least as far as the other 3 chords are concerned, sounds rather consonant) it might not work.

Well that's because it's a double extended diminished. Hence most of the time it's (as you put it part) of the diminished scale.
Or as 13b9 (the tritone sub of 7#9) HW scale.

But that doesn't mean it isn't equally at home as that 13b9 as the V in Harmonic major etc...