So let's have this CAGED conversation...

AFKAEjay(retired) said:
Wtf do these people know about guitar playing!!!!……….kidding Offcourse ;)
Well…BB king supposedly had no system…that doesn’t make “no system” a good system either…and he’s obviously still a great player ;)…although he probably won’t make it through giant steps…so “means to an end” applies.
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BB had a system…. Every player has a system of some sort, even if it’s a system of suck.
 
So I've been pondering this 12(9) vs 7 vs 5 position thing.

I realised why the 12 thing is sorta annoying to me.
I only spread the pinky when absolutely needed and use my middle finger instead of ring when the pinky needs stretching.

Plus having toilet seat cover size hands it matters a lot less.

Anyways with that in mind during my 3nps string days I used to play with starting a scale on each finger.

Meaning c to c starting on the 8th with index for me is 8th position, it of course be 9th as well.
As in for me it's cde frets 8 10 12 is index middle pinky.
Whereas in 9th position ala classical it'd be index middle pinky and in 9th it be index middle pinky.

Anyways, for me I practiced it as 8 10 12 I m p
Then m p index on 7 next string.
This also could be I r i

Etc...
Eventually I broke it down two either start on the lowest finger 1 (index/middle interchangeable), in-between finger 2 (middlle/ring) or highest 3 (ring/pinky)
That gives the permutations 123, 231, 312.
 
Ed DeGenaro said:
I only spread the pinky when absolutely needed and use my middle finger instead of ring when the pinky needs stretching.
Click to expand...

Exactly the same here. Most of us simply aren't Paul Gilbert (who actually seems to prefer stretching the pinky in many situations when he could as well stretch the index finger).

Anyhow, on further inspection of my own playing and how I "think" while playing (I actually don't exactly think), I could condense things down to just 5 main positions - but it's pretty hard to tell as I really never play over the entire set of strings within one position. I always move out of position at one time, simply because it's easier, allows me to bend a certain note better, gives access to some chordal shape - you name it.
If anything, breaking out of position playing (or any kind of fixed pattern such as 3NPS and what have you) for me is the most important thing ever in terms of scale (and partially also chord) playing.
 
Sascha Franck said:
Exactly the same here. Most of us simply aren't Paul Gilbert (who actually seems to prefer stretching the pinky in many situations when he could as well stretch the index finger).

Anyhow, on further inspection of my own playing and how I "think" while playing (I actually don't exactly think), I could condense things down to just 5 main positions - but it's pretty hard to tell as I really never play over the entire set of strings within one position. I always move out of position at one time, simply because it's easier, allows me to bend a certain note better, gives access to some chordal shape - you name it.
If anything, breaking out of position playing (or any kind of fixed pattern such as 3NPS and what have you) for me is the most important thing ever in terms of scale (and partially also chord) playing.
Click to expand...
Yeah the going out of position or connecting positions is pretty much where I live as well. I mean it also depends on sound and flow.
Say descending line 2nd position coming from A4 going to A3 (A3 to A2 fire midi guys) on g string I might switch to an upper position when going down like say...

---5---3
----------6--5--3
--------------------5--4---
---------------------------7--5---
---------------------------------8-7 etc
 
Sascha Franck said:
Exactly the same here. Most of us simply aren't Paul Gilbert (who actually seems to prefer stretching the pinky in many situations when he could as well stretch the index finger).

Anyhow, on further inspection of my own playing and how I "think" while playing (I actually don't exactly think), I could condense things down to just 5 main positions - but it's pretty hard to tell as I really never play over the entire set of strings within one position. I always move out of position at one time, simply because it's easier, allows me to bend a certain note better, gives access to some chordal shape - you name it.
If anything, breaking out of position playing (or any kind of fixed pattern such as 3NPS and what have you) for me is the most important thing ever in terms of scale (and partially also chord) playing.
Click to expand...
As for the Paul Gilbert thing, the reason I hate the Rin pinky spread is that those two share a tendon, whereas mddlle ring or middle pinky have their own.

Literally the only time I speed ring pinky if I do like a 4nps thing.
And half the time I likely prefer a slide there.
 
Ed DeGenaro said:
And half the time I likely prefer a slide there.
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Amen to that! Seriously, sliding is overlooked very, very often.
I actually made some kinda "tests" a while ago. Well, it's not even real tests, anyone can check things in seconds.

I think that there's a kind of misleading "general consensus" that slides can't be performed as flawlessly or fast or that they would always produce a sliding noise or whatever. But I don't think any of that is really true.

Very obviously, alternating between just two notes on one string is a *lot* easier and faster to do in case you play them within one position using two fingers. Slides typically can't do these back and forth movements as fast. But that's changing instantly once you only have to slide from one position into another and then stay there for a while (even if that "while" is just 2-3 notes).

To illustrate:
Take, say, an A on B/10 and a C on B/13. Using the index finger for the A and the pinky for the C will allow you to do quick alternating between the two, regardless of whether you pick them or use hammer-ons and pull-offs. When you try to do the same with just the index finger, sliding/moving between the two, you'll likely notice a huge decrease in speed and fluidity. One of the reasons possibly being the mass of your hand that you have to move back and forth, which obviously requires a lot of physical energy.
But now, just take the A to C movement in an isolated fashion (so you'd leave a bit of time between this and the next round). When you concentrate on that for a while, you will likely notice that you'll be able to slide from A to C (regardless of which finger you're using) almost as fast as you could when playing them with fingers 1 and 4. And once you're a bit more fluent with sliding, you may not even notice the slide anymore and could as well pick both notes or even create a legato movement - simply because a single slide can be performed pretty, pretty fast.

Bonus with slides: You can as well easily cover quite wide position shifts and intervals pretty flawlessly, once you've practiced to hit the proper fret a little.

I think Yngwie Malmteen make a lot of use of sliding (and single string playing). And he's not particularly slow or sloppy. Django Reinhardt is possibly making even more use of them (due to his injuries), his way of playing actually wouldn't even be possible without intense use of slides. I think Josho Stephan mentions it at one point on his Rick Beato visit, too.
 
Sascha Franck said:
Amen to that! Seriously, sliding is overlooked very, very often.
I actually made some kinda "tests" a while ago. Well, it's not even real tests, anyone can check things in seconds.

I think that there's a kind of misleading "general consensus" that slides can't be performed as flawlessly or fast or that they would always produce a sliding noise or whatever. But I don't think any of that is really true.

Very obviously, alternating between just two notes on one string is a *lot* easier and faster to do in case you play them within one position using two fingers. Slides typically can't do these back and forth movements as fast. But that's changing instantly once you only have to slide from one position into another and then stay there for a while (even if that "while" is just 2-3 notes).

To illustrate:
Take, say, an A on B/10 and a C on B/13. Using the index finger for the A and the pinky for the C will allow you to do quick alternating between the two, regardless of whether you pick them or use hammer-ons and pull-offs. When you try to do the same with just the index finger, sliding/moving between the two, you'll likely notice a huge decrease in speed and fluidity. One of the reasons possibly being the mass of your hand that you have to move back and forth, which obviously requires a lot of physical energy.
But now, just take the A to C movement in an isolated fashion (so you'd leave a bit of time between this and the next round). When you concentrate on that for a while, you will likely notice that you'll be able to slide from A to C (regardless of which finger you're using) almost as fast as you could when playing them with fingers 1 and 4. And once you're a bit more fluent with sliding, you may not even notice the slide anymore and could as well pick both notes or even create a legato movement - simply because a single slide can be performed pretty, pretty fast.

Bonus with slides: You can as well easily cover quite wide position shifts and intervals pretty flawlessly, once you've practiced to hit the proper fret a little.

I think Yngwie Malmteen make a lot of use of sliding (and single string playing). And he's not particularly slow or sloppy. Django Reinhardt is possibly making even more use of them (due to his injuries), his way of playing actually wouldn't even be possible without intense use of slides. I think Josho Stephan mentions it at one point on his Rick Beato visit, too.
Click to expand...
Yes!!!!
The django alternate picked chromatic one Octave slide got me started on that.


One of my faves is sliding 3 16th triplets to 16ths back like…

On b string slide (16th triplets)5-6-7-(16th)8-6-5(down beat)
 
Sascha Franck said:
Amen to that! Seriously, sliding is overlooked very, very often.
I actually made some kinda "tests" a while ago. Well, it's not even real tests, anyone can check things in seconds.

I think that there's a kind of misleading "general consensus" that slides can't be performed as flawlessly or fast or that they would always produce a sliding noise or whatever. But I don't think any of that is really true.

Very obviously, alternating between just two notes on one string is a *lot* easier and faster to do in case you play them within one position using two fingers. Slides typically can't do these back and forth movements as fast. But that's changing instantly once you only have to slide from one position into another and then stay there for a while (even if that "while" is just 2-3 notes).

To illustrate:
Take, say, an A on B/10 and a C on B/13. Using the index finger for the A and the pinky for the C will allow you to do quick alternating between the two, regardless of whether you pick them or use hammer-ons and pull-offs. When you try to do the same with just the index finger, sliding/moving between the two, you'll likely notice a huge decrease in speed and fluidity. One of the reasons possibly being the mass of your hand that you have to move back and forth, which obviously requires a lot of physical energy.
But now, just take the A to C movement in an isolated fashion (so you'd leave a bit of time between this and the next round). When you concentrate on that for a while, you will likely notice that you'll be able to slide from A to C (regardless of which finger you're using) almost as fast as you could when playing them with fingers 1 and 4. And once you're a bit more fluent with sliding, you may not even notice the slide anymore and could as well pick both notes or even create a legato movement - simply because a single slide can be performed pretty, pretty fast.

Bonus with slides: You can as well easily cover quite wide position shifts and intervals pretty flawlessly, once you've practiced to hit the proper fret a little.

I think Yngwie Malmteen make a lot of use of sliding (and single string playing). And he's not particularly slow or sloppy. Django Reinhardt is possibly making even more use of them (due to his injuries), his way of playing actually wouldn't even be possible without intense use of slides. I think Josho Stephan mentions it at one point on his Rick Beato visit, too.
Click to expand...
Something like this for the sliding thing..

 
some nice information here...I finally was able to trundle to the end
maybe I don't understand CAGED at all
it is cool to discuss process and how different players approach the minutia of their playing

I did learn a few things...and plenty still to research

as far as "sliding" techniques creating unwanted noise: I have worked hard to decrease the squeaky gliss on wound strings as much as possible
it is essentially lift and place quickly and rather accurately

an ascending slide on a wound string can typically slip by somewhat unnoticed;
a downward gliss can mostly be compared to fingernails on a blackboard for me

I love Opeth, but once you hear it, those songs are tainted forever
 
My heads fried lol
men-in-black-elevator-bl9aof028bibxz98.gif
 
ok, yeah, I didn't "consciously" know about the connected nature of CAGED patternology

Aaand I can certainly see easy confusion for learners as far as identifying, say an Eb major chord using an A pattern...immediately alarm bells go off..yeah, it's simple, yet works at cross purposes

so, yeah, like @Ed DeGenaro says, let the root guide you
 
If you instantly know where the root notes are across the neck of the chord you can build a scale or chord off the other positions. The shape is based on what string the root is on . You then use 3NPS shapes or whatever you feel comfortable using. A totally instant unconscious knowledge of the notes and the major scale in all positions is the absolute basics . It’s also the way to learn new concepts all over the neck .
 
Eagle said:
If you instantly know where the root notes are across the neck of the chord you can build a scale or chord off the other positions. The shape is based on what string the root is on . You then use 3NPS shapes or whatever you feel comfortable using. A totally instant unconscious knowledge of the notes and the major scale in all positions is the absolute basics . It’s also the way to learn new concepts all over the neck .
Click to expand...
From my experience I gotta say it did not happen this way for.

Quick recap, I went from minor pentatonic like most, to 7 positions. Of course I thought those were modes.
To 3nps, with a quick detour to 4nps to 5 positions.

Shedded changes like mad with my newfound knowledge of where the roots were.
Like playing in one position moving through different cycles. Like minor thirds.

Now mind you at that time I still broke stuff down to keycenter. As in over say G7 I was playing C target the sounds of its V chord.

Then I added the altered options which is where it got funny.
Let’s say you play G-7 C7 F-7 B♭7 E♭-7 A♭7♭9♯5 D♭△7 finding the roots coming from the 2-5s staying in position when chords change every half bar or bar made for a fun exercise but sure not music.
Just the same with the practice everything in 12 keys.

What finally worked well for me was learning lines and seeing and hearing their internal harmony without chords underneath.

As in any line has points of tension and resolution. Once I got that learning how that harmony and actual harmony it goes on top of start to make for interesting stuff I was finally able to improvise in a sensible manner that wasn’t hodgepidging scale runs, arpeggios and tricks.
 
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