Should flagship modelers keep up with the latest standards?

[James Freeman]

Take movable virtual mic for example, QC, Helix and Fractal, all had it within a year of each other.
Scribble strips, color coded footswitches, snapshots, mixed stomp/snap modes, would you buy a new flagship without these?

Some features are so convenient I will be specifically looking for them in my next modeler.
Fenders new flagship TMP was in development for 3 years just to keep up with current modeler standards, it's very expensive and time consuming for companies to enter this well established field and be relevant.

Do you expect the latest innovations/features to be included out-of-the-box in new flagship modelers?
How great features are fixated as 'standard' anyway?
Who are the geniuses that invent the new "must have" features?

@Digital Igloo I know you know a thing or two about this, I would very much like to hear your opinion.

 

[James Freeman]

Do we even know what features we want/need and are actually useful before they appear in a new modeler/firmware?

"Philosophy of Modelers"

 

[laxu]

Snapshots/scenes are a workaround for the inability to do seamless preset switching, even though switching within the presets makes sense just to avoid having to duplicate presets that are almost identical. It's a "maybe standard feature, but could be done differently" thing.

For signal routing there's different philosophies also partially coming from technical limitations. Fractal's "these cores run amp/delay modeling, these run the rest of the fx, but routing can be whatever you want" vs Helix/QC's "you manage the DSP yourself with 4 paths representing 2 processors and their cores". Then there's Headrush/Boss/Fender's "fixed paths for user simplicity and maybe optimizations" paradigm.

To me the user should not have to CPU manage. At the same time I don't really like the "patch cables between blocks" thing that much. Some automatization would be useful, like connect block to the next one automatically and let the user change the routing if needed. Most of the time we don't care about the connections for anything but parallel routing.

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The minimum expectation for a complex modeler is that it has a wide variety of classic and modern amps, cabs and effects. Fender Blackface, Vox AC30, Marshall Plexi and JCM800, Soldano SLO and Mesa Dual Rectifier are the bare minimum for amps. Similarly there's a set of staple effects that should be there, your Tube Screamer/Rat/DS-1, hall/room/plate reverbs, analog/tape/digital delays etc.

Going forward, we should not have to deal with things like "you need to pick a separate amp model if the various tone tweaking switches on the amp are set different." Just do whatever is needed to model and switch those behind the scenes and present a simple row of switches UI. Different channels as their own models is still justifiable as user convenience because we usually want to pick a particular channel instead of picking an amp and having to switch the channel separately. Different variants of an amp (e.g Fractal's various Marshall Superlead models) should be buried somewhere similar to those tone tweak switches.

Capturing tech is close to being table stakes, but is still just a "value added" feature if the device is not built around captures. It's an easy way to appease the "more, more, more" people, and also a big convenience for the "I want to digitalize my real amps" folks.

For cab sims, the movable mic system is now a required feature. IR loader support should still be there, but it's no longer the main cab sim option. Whether the movable mic system should be Fractal's incredibly precise one, or Fender's "fixed steps but distinct tonal changes" approach is debatable. What both are missing is blendable room mics similar to what Universal Audio's OX Box/Stomp offers.

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Fender didn't necessarily need to chase the complex modeler market because as you said, it's a lot of effort to become a challenger worth mentioning in that category, when you are compared to platforms with many years of development and developer experience behind them.

There's a huge gap in the modeler market between a Tone Master combo amp and a Tone Master Pro multifx unit. We have things like the Nux Trident or Blackstar Amped 2 in that area, but neither company is executing at the level equal to Line6 or Fractal. To me that's the untapped market for people who don't need every option under the sun and just want something that offers enough and is easy to use.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Do you expect the latest innovations/features to be included out-of-the-box in new flagship modelers?

Well, I'd expect a rather different set of features, so my answer would be yes and no. "Yes" because I'm as much into some of the rather established conveniences as anybody else, "no" because the things I'd like to see the most can rarely be found.

 

[laxu]

Well, I'd expect a rather different set of features, so my answer would be yes and no. "Yes" because I'm as much into some of the rather established conveniences as anybody else, "no" because the things I'd like to see the most can rarely be found.

What sort of things would you like to see?

For me the improvements I want are largely UI related. I can make 3 amp models work just as well as 300. Hell, give me a Marshall Superlead sound and a delay and reverb I like and I'll be already 90% happy with what I've got. Large pools of amps/cabs/fx are more like "I got bored or want to try something different" type deals than essentials.

 

[Eagle]

If a company comes up with something in the interface or a feature that is universally acclaimed the others can not afford not to include it . The best of the best design their hardware to have the flexibility it incorporate as many new things as possible in firmware but this obviously has limitations physically . It would be a brave company that ignored the competition. I can think of one in my last profession (photography ) that did and the jury is still out on whether that was the right thing or not "Lieca". They unashamedly go for build quality over everything else and are almost entirely overlooked by all serious pro users because of it. But they are a work of art (the M model is anyway).

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Flagship sort of implies it needs to be all conquering. Can’t have a flagship modeller with significant compromise vs the competition. That’s not to say they can’t have room to evolve - Fender’s amp list choice is kind of “bare minimum” for a flagship modeller, but that’s 100% expected to grow. If there is only ever a choice of 3 amps, I can’t really consider that a flagship modeller.

I like that the technology from the flagships is being repurposed into different products that cater to different requirements. UA are sort of odd here because they don’t have a “flagship” but they ONLY have the individual components spread across different products. I think the future will see more products like this - cherry picking certain aspects of “all in one” modellers and tailoring them to do specific tasks with simplicity, speed, size, cost as the focus.

 

[Sascha Franck]

What sort of things would you like to see?

Most of all: global blocks. Not necessarily in any specific incarnation, could be as in Fractal land, as the Boss method or maybe even as a hardware-dized Mainstage (which isn't exactly using global blocks but you're usually loading full "registrations" per gig allowing you to manipulate whatever portions within that registration, so a drive block you'd change within the project would be changed throughout).

Then, several UI improvements.

As a very general thing, offering a rather different approach towards things, I'd like to be able to rebuild a loopswitcher based pedalboard inside a modeler. The main thing I like about that is that I can preselect things per loop and only recall the on/off status of the loops. Ideally, this should go along with the current "traditional" approach, so you could have both completely different parts of your board per patch/scene but also keep another portion sort of as a "playground".

To make all of this work flawlessly, a different set of hardware controls would be required, such as:
- More switches, ideally ones with scribble strips. In an ideal world, they'd be stackable, so the base version could come with whatever smaller number, allowing you to stack up banks of, say, 6 or 8 additional switches.
- More encoders, ideally again with scribble strips. In an ideal world, you could a) detach them from the unit and b) stack them, should you want more.

To keep everything under control, it needed mobile editors. I don't know of any musician without a tablet anymore already, but €100-200 would already buy you a nice one capable of running any editor, should you want to dedicate it just to your modeler.
That very editor should allow for different modes, such as editing mode and performance mode. Editing mode would be rather typical but it should allow you to edit multiple blocks simultaneously as many of then strongly interact (such as drives and amps or delays and reverbs) and it's a real chore having to go back and forth all the time. Performance mode would allow you to place the most relevant parameters for, well, a performance next to each other on one page. Think along the lines of TouchOSC.

Those would be my major wishes.

Note: Apart from the tablet thing, I have been able to slap something pretty close together around 15 years ago already, (ab)using Energy XT (a killer modular host, unfortunately discontinued in the form it had back then) and Guitar Rig (I think V3). I was using Rig Kontrol, an additional Rolls MIDI switcher and a Behringer BCR 2000. Initial setup was a nightmare but once it worked, it was pretty damn impressive and stable. Could only use it for some theatre jobs as the system was too much stuff (I added a rack preamp and speaker sim for rock sounds, too) and I'd never knewn where to place the laptop on normal stages.
I'm saying this because that's the reason why I know it could be done quite easily.

Regarding sonic things, I'd like to see more playground-ish stuff. Yeah, I know, most people want iconic amps and stuff, but personally, I'd rather like to have some experimental and oddball things. Envelopes, LFOs, input level as modifiers, decent sets of filters and maybe a synth section a la Boss SY-300/1000.
Oh well, in my wet dreams, someone would ask Urs Heckmann of U-He to port his MFM2 delay to a hardware modeler. Most stunning delay ever.

 

[Piing]

Interface, scribble, colors, tactile sensation, snaps, snacks, bluteeth, iphone apps, monkey grip...

If they do not have at minimum Fractal Audio Cygnus quality, all these embellishments are futile for me.

 

[Iron1]

Something Fender has that Helix & AFX don't: Bluetooth app editing. The ability to use my iPhone to edit the tones on my GTX50 is/was a game changer for modeling amps, for me at least. No one wants to fiddle with on-unit editing at a gig, much less bring a laptop to use the interface.

Seems like something L6 & Fractal need to provide asap, if you ask me.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Something Fender has that Helix & AFX don't: Bluetooth app editing.

Boss has it as well.

 

[Iron1]

Boss has it as well.

The Katana's I've had did not, but I assume you're talking about the actual GTs, not the combos, right? Either way, definitely a killer feature.

 

[Sascha Franck]

but I assume you're talking about the actual GTs, not the combos, right?

Correct. Unfortunately, the GT-1000 Core doesn't have it (why-oh-effing-why?!?), otherwise I would've likely bought it already to become the swiss knife of my pedalboard (still considering a GT-1000, but I'd have to build a bigger board in that case - I'd rather downsize).

 

[Byrdman]

I would think that there is a small percentage of users of any flagship modeler that actually use all the features. A good majority probably use just enough or small % of it's capability to do what they need, but if XXX Flagship has 3 pages of features, amps, effects, etc and ZZZ Flagship only has half for about the same price, then XXX is going to be perceived better if sounds are relatively similar or just as good.

So from a marketing/selling standpoint, absolutely. From an actual needs, probably not.

 

[Iron1]

I would think that there is a small percentage of users of any flagship modeler that actually use all the features. A good majority probably use just enough or small % of it's capability to do what they need...

Guilty as charged. I barely scratch the surface of what the Helix can do, which is likely why I love the Stomp so much. That and the inherent future riches surely to befall me by investing in Stomp Bucks.

 

[Byrdman]

Guilty as charged. I barely scratch the surface of what the Helix can do, which is likely why I love the Stomp so much. That and the inherent future riches surely to befall me by investing in Stomp Bucks.

TBH, me too with my non-flagship device, HX Stomp XL. I have barely scratched the surface on the capabilities on this thing. I even think it has too many things going on for my needs. I upgraded from a NUX MG300, and IMO, overall everything is much better than the MG300. Sure the 300 did everything I really needed, but some things just seemed cheap and a pain in the ass with it. But other things that were dumbed down for someone like me, is a lot less complicated.

On the other hand, my XL just seems more refined in all categories, but I'm all over the place it and feel really unorganized than what I think I should be with it. About 3 months ago, I started to run everything through my amp, Catalyst 200, in the preamp settings vs straight in, and my tones seemed to "Come Alive" to my ears. Been playing that way for months. Now, just for shit and giggles, I started running it straight into the input and I am liking the tones so much better after some adjustments.

I am so glad I have the XL now, and will be growing into it, but at my playing level, time tweaking a modeler takes away from practicing. I could not imagine how scatter-brained I would feel if I had a real Flagship device like Helix, Factual, TMP, QC, etc.

 

[laxu]

Most of all: global blocks. Not necessarily in any specific incarnation, could be as in Fractal land, as the Boss method or maybe even as a hardware-dized Mainstage (which isn't exactly using global blocks but you're usually loading full "registrations" per gig allowing you to manipulate whatever portions within that registration, so a drive block you'd change within the project would be changed throughout).

Then, several UI improvements.

As a very general thing, offering a rather different approach towards things, I'd like to be able to rebuild a loopswitcher based pedalboard inside a modeler. The main thing I like about that is that I can preselect things per loop and only recall the on/off status of the loops. Ideally, this should go along with the current "traditional" approach, so you could have both completely different parts of your board per patch/scene but also keep another portion sort of as a "playground".

To make all of this work flawlessly, a different set of hardware controls would be required, such as:
- More switches, ideally ones with scribble strips. In an ideal world, they'd be stackable, so the base version could come with whatever smaller number, allowing you to stack up banks of, say, 6 or 8 additional switches.
- More encoders, ideally again with scribble strips. In an ideal world, you could a) detach them from the unit and b) stack them, should you want more.

To keep everything under control, it needed mobile editors. I don't know of any musician without a tablet anymore already, but €100-200 would already buy you a nice one capable of running any editor, should you want to dedicate it just to your modeler.
That very editor should allow for different modes, such as editing mode and performance mode. Editing mode would be rather typical but it should allow you to edit multiple blocks simultaneously as many of then strongly interact (such as drives and amps or delays and reverbs) and it's a real chore having to go back and forth all the time. Performance mode would allow you to place the most relevant parameters for, well, a performance next to each other on one page. Think along the lines of TouchOSC.

Those would be my major wishes.

I think we are on the same line of thinking. While I don't care about building a loop switcher style setup as much, I understand the usefulness of that approach. The recent question about how to do something like that on Fractal really highlighted that its way of working is missing something that is just "turn this chain of effects on/off" or "switch between routes A and B" in a sensible manner, hence the requests for an "inverse mixer/multiplexer" block.

Global blocks and scene ignore features are also very useful when you want to build a live rig type setup where your amp/cab generally stays the same and you mainly work around what else is enabled around them.

I'm all for being able to expand on the built in controls. While something like dedicated foot controllers will be more powerful due to being able to transfer data between the devices in a sensible way via Sysex, MIDI controllers should support the same features within reason, just not two way communication. That's mostly good enough for footswitching.

The support for expanding on the knob control is abysmal in current modelers, when with a MIDI CC -> param mapper you could have any number of external physical controls.

I'd love the ability to pin multiple blocks on screen on computer editors or pin one next to the currently selected block in an onboard UI. Drive + amp, comp + drive, amp + cab, delay + reverb, delay 1 + delay 2...these are all things you often end up adjusting in tandem. All the current modelers are stuck in the "one block at a time" paradigm.

Mobile editors make sense because generally your tablet is just a better touchscreen and you don't need to crouch to the floor to operate it. The main problem with these is that they are a bit crappy without encoders, but maybe if it's not your main way of editing it works well enough with some sliders on screen.

 

[Lysander]

I think the word you're looking for is "trends", not "standards"

Other than things like input jacks, XLRs, USB connectivity and IR loading, there's (sadly) very little standardized in the modeling/profiling hardware world.

 

[Bob Zaod]

Something Fender has that Helix & AFX don't: Bluetooth app editing. The ability to use my iPhone to edit the tones on my GTX50 is/was a game changer for modeling amps, for me at least. No one wants to fiddle with on-unit editing at a gig, much less bring a laptop to use the interface.

Seems like something L6 & Fractal need to provide asap, if you ask me.

I think Marshall was doing that with the code before anyone but the Code sucks. I agree BTW I think BT editing via phone/tablet app is a fantastic option. Very slow to connect on my GX-100 I had, but it did work once it actually connected.

 

[Sascha Franck]

While I don't care about building a loop switcher style setup as much, I understand the usefulness of that approach. The recent question about how to do something like that on Fractal really highlighted that its way of working is missing something that is just "turn this chain of effects on/off" or "switch between routes A and B" in a sensible manner, hence the requests for an "inverse mixer/multiplexer" block.

The wish for virtual loop switcher board comes from being a live player, often thrown into cold waters at subbing jobs (which, at least this year, has been my main source of income, just during the next weekend I'm playing 3 subbing jobs, all with different but partially unknown demands, so slapping together patches and setlists beforehand is completely impossible).
Same goes for global blocks - and fwiw, with cleverly implemented global blocks and seamless switching, I may not even need the loopswitcher thing.

What strikes me as being quite odd with all that is that no modeler on the market could even remotely be used to rebuild my current, rather modest pedalboard, even if (as my described old laptop setup demonstrates) it should very easily be possible.

Global blocks and scene ignore features are also very useful when you want to build a live rig type setup where your amp/cab generally stays the same and you mainly work around what else is enabled around them.

That's precisely what I'd need them for.

Fwiw, some observation over the last years: When I joined TGP, one of the first things was asking whether the Helix would support global blocks one day. And guess what? I got slammed and dissed left and right. "Hohoho, asking for those means you're not preparing your patches well enough!" being among the friendlier remarks. Completely regardless whether I was explaining the nature of many of my jobs and other benefits (let alone most of these comments came from people who may see a stage once a year or just play the same kinda thing in a controlled P&W environment or whatever...)
Now, some years later, forums are still full of complaints, questions and what not. "Booohooohooo, the patches I carefully curated at home sound like poopoo live, my bandmates are killing me for that muddy yet shrill mess and I lack of any control!"
Yeah, usually there's a global EQ which can tackle a part of good ol' Fletcher Munson, but as we all know, that's not all there is to it. Too much gain, too much reverb, wrong level balances, etc.
And - *kazong* - all of a sudden things such as "let me edit one block systemwide" (aka making it a global block) gain popularity. Apparently there's not just the Mr. Francks of this world not knowing how to properly dial in patches at home...
Needless to say (and pun probably intended...): I never suffered from bad home <-> live translation issues because I simply chose my setup accordingly (with the Helix Floor I was always only using one patch per gig and with the pedalboard it's a non issue anyway).

As one more thing: I'm absolutely sure that quite some modeler players still don't sound as good as they could live because of that. Sure, in case it's a somewhat bigger and/or well rehearsed and "controlled condition" act, all those are no issues anymore. On the musical shows I played, I could've covered my stuff with epoxy goop, never needed to adjust anything after the first 1-2 shows anymore.
But for anything else, be it sessions, subbing jobs, difficult venues, gigs with lots of impromptu occasions, etc., things such as global blocks, along with as many encoders as possible to allow for very quick access of the most relevant parameters are a godsend.