Send/return/output levels : Helix floor via 4 cable method to MB Mark VII

[gearJunkie]

Looking for advice on proper gain staging the Helix Floor in 4CM to a (insert high gain tube amp name here).

Current setup:

• Guitar > Hx guitar in > Hx send 1 > Mk7 in > Mk7 send > Hx return > Hx out (L) > Mk7 return
• Hx send/return set to instrument level
• Hx 1/4" out set to line level
• Using the Helix "4-Cable Method" template preset

In order to achieve unity gain between the Mk7 preamp and the Hx US Deluxe Nrm preamp model, I have attenuated both the send 1 and return 1 levels by 6db. Then I also have to push the Hx preamp model channel volume to 10.0.

Does this seem right? Am I overlooking something?

Please share any insight and "best practices" with gain staging the Helix in 4CM.

Thanks

 

[gearJunkie]

Think I figured (part of) this out.

I didn't like that I could only assign the level for the send/return block homogeneously.

I want an instrument level send and a line level return.

Solution is to use send 1 @ instrument level and return 2 @ line level.

Now to figure out bypass switching for the 2 loop blocks and the Hx preamp block. I am going to try bypass both loop blocks when activating the Hx preamp block.

I hate editing with the Hx on the floor.

 

[gearJunkie]

OK. I'm ditching the template and I'm going to build the Helix preset from scratch.

Interesting note wrt the Mark VI: the power section is controlled by the selected channel on the amp. Makes sense because each channel has its own MV and the channel also controls the output power level (90/45/25 watts).

Cool side effect of this behavior is that I can use the real MB 5-band eq with helix preamp models.

Still debating if the result will be worth all the effort.

 

[EOengineer]

Just a courtesy mention to check your I/O is configured to use instrument or line (whatever the Mesa inputs and loops want - prob instrument) otherwise your gain staging might be all over the map.

I’ve been through this with my Helix and Mark III but it’s been a while. I seem to recall having to fiddle with some send and return levels to try to get proper gain staging and have levels where I expected them to be.

 

[gearJunkie]

Just a courtesy mention to check your I/O is configured to use instrument or line (whatever the Mesa inputs and loops want - prob instrument) otherwise your gain staging might be all over the map.

yeah, I had to use send 1 and return 2 so I could configure them separately as instrument (Hx send 1 to amp in) and line (Hx return from amp loop send).

I ditched the template and built my own preset. Think I'm fairly close now, but had to stop for the night due to ear fatigue.

Thank you for the reply!

{edited for spelling}

 

[mbenigni]

Solution is to use send 1 @ instrument level and return 2 @ line level.

This works, but results in a more complex, less intuitive preset template (and ties up an additional loop block).

I mentioned the inability to assign instrument vs. line level to sends and returns independently some time ago, and @Digital Igloo's response was that attenuating n dB with the send/return level control is equivalent.

 

[SillyOctpuss]

yeah, I had to use send 1 and return 2 so I could configure them separately as instrument (Hx send 1 to amp in) and line (Hx return from amp loop send).

That's how I'm using my jvm with my stomp in 4cm.

 

[gearJunkie]

This works, but results in a more complex, less intuitive preset template (and ties up an additional loop block).

I mentioned the inability to assign instrument vs. line level to sends and returns independently some time ago, and @Digital Igloo's response was that attenuating n dB with the send/return level control is equivalent.

That's how I'm using my jvm with my stomp in 4cm.

Thank you both for sharing that information!

 

[JT]

FWIW; I have in and outs on the Stomp set to line level with output at -10db (iirc?) and that seems to play best with both the BL and the VII.

 

[gearJunkie]

FWIW; I have in and outs on the Stomp set to line level with output at -10db (iirc?) and that seems to play best with both the BL and the VII.

Thanks JT. That's extremely helpful info.
Cheers.

 

[EOengineer]

Just curious what your experience has been so far sending HX preamp models through your VII? Is it working for you?

I spent some time testing the Mark IV model into my Mark III last year and found I didn’t care for the preamp model into the Mark III power amp AT ALL. I did find some usable tones using the Mark IV full amp into the Mark III but overall I preferred the Mark III enough that I really only use my HX for fx with that amp.

Counter to other opinions I’ve seen, I experienced more satisfaction just running the HX Mark IV into a BAM200 and then a guitar cab. My Mark III is still more toneful but this works well as a very good sounding tubeless rig.

 

[gearJunkie]

I actually did the same as you (@EOengineer ) and used the Hx Mk4 pre into the Mk7 power section (set to channel 3 on Mk4 mode) and it sounded glorious and very close to the Mk7 preamp (in Mk4 mode).

Also sounds good when the Mk7 is set to channel 1 clean & fat modes, but not so much on channel 1 or channel 2 in crunch mode.

Obviously, in the Mk7, the selected mode affects the response of the power section.

I also got great sounds boosting the Brit Trem Bright with the Minotaur using channel 1 & 3 on the Mk7.

That said, I do not plan on using the Hx preamps, but it was a fun experiment. I'm still tweaking levels for proper gain staging, so I'll report back if my impressions evolve.

I have now switched back to using the H9 with 4CM in pre/post mode with the Super AT Mod Overdrive after the H9 (pre) and into the Mk7 input So far I'm loving the simplicity.

I'll continue to update this thread my experiments continue.

 

[Alex Kenivel]

I have everything set up at instrument level on my Stomp into my MT15. FX loop block Send and Return are 0dB for the most part. Some Snapshots the Send might be lower or higher depending on how much input gain I want. I set the Clean and Lead channel's MVs to be comparable in level and use the main knob to attenuate the signal into the power tubes to drive the power tubes less and cut volume. The MT15 is a way simpler amp compared to a Mesa so on one edge of the knife there's less to worry about.

I have to use the Global EQ to make up for some bass and treble loss.

 

[SillyOctpuss]

I have to use the Global EQ to make up for some bass and treble loss.

I wasn't getting any loss of bass but did have a bit of high end loss with my stomp and jvm in 4cm. I found running a buffer in front of my stomp fixed this issue.

 

[Alex Kenivel]

I wasn't getting any loss of bass but did have a bit of high end loss with my stomp and jvm in 4cm. I found running a buffer in front of my stomp fixed this issue.

HX into the input, not needed, but into the power section with my cables, I hear the difference.

 

[SillyOctpuss]

HX into the input, not needed, but into the power section with my cables, I hear the difference.

That would make sense with all the extra cable running to the stomp and back