NPD: Source Audio Collider

TheBigDipper said:
Unfortunately, there is a noticeable gap when loading a new preset - it takes time and you notice the gap if you're trying to play and switch sounds. So, as an alternative way to use it, I tried loading a preset at the start of a song and sending it CC commands to turn the delay side off and the reverb side on when going from verse to chorus. The first CC command was processed (delay off) seamlessly and the second one (reverb on) was lost and never processed. A support rep at SA told me they knew this was an issue and the MIDI buffer was too small to store the second command whilst it processed the first.
Click to expand...
They may have fixed this with a firmware update.

I just hooked up my Luminite Graviton M1 to the Collider with a MIDI cable and tried the preset switching. I can send a "toggle reverb, toggle delay" as two commands and it works consistently, toggling from delay to reverb and vice versa. There is also a single MIDI CC that can take 0=delay on, reverb off and 127=reverb on, delay off. So any controller that can toggle 0/127 can flip the sides that are on.

Preset switching was much more varied:
  • Switching from a preset setup for parallel routing vs series routing had the most noticeable gap and could cause a small pop when going to a parallel preset. This didn't happen every time though, so it's a bit weird. Switching from parallel preset 1 to parallel preset 2 caused no issues.
  • The gaps between preset changes seem to be dependent on which sides are enabled. I can use CC commands that load "preset X with only reverb enabled" and going between two presets like that is pretty much gapless.
  • If I then turn on delay and change to a preset with reverb only enabled, there can be a tiny gap.
Seems there's issues with handling the two engines in various states which then cause them to have varying degrees of gap. It might also depend on the engine, as switching from a preset with Shimmer to another one while playing was more likely to cause a gap. I would assume Shimmer is more demanding than some due to the pitch shifting.

But for me the gaps would not be a problem and toggling from delay to reverb worked well.
 
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laxu said:
They may have fixed this with a firmware update.

I just hooked up my Luminite Graviton M1 to the Collider with a MIDI cable and tried the preset switching. I can send a "toggle reverb, toggle delay" as two commands and it works consistently, toggling from delay to reverb and vice versa. There is also a single MIDI CC that can take 0=delay on, reverb off and 127=reverb on, delay off. So any controller that can toggle 0/127 can flip the sides that are on.

Preset switching was much more varied:
  • Switching from a preset setup for parallel routing vs series routing had the most noticeable gap and could cause a small pop when going to a parallel preset. This didn't happen every time though, so it's a bit weird. Switching from parallel preset 1 to parallel preset 2 caused no issues.
  • The gaps between preset changes seem to be dependent on which sides are enabled. I can use CC commands that load "preset X with only reverb enabled" and going between two presets like that is pretty much gapless.
  • If I then turn on delay and change to a preset with reverb only enabled, there can be a tiny gap.
Seems there's issues with handling the two engines in various states which then cause them to have varying degrees of gap. It might also depend on the engine, as switching from a preset with Shimmer to another one while playing was more likely to cause a gap. I would assume Shimmer is more demanding than some due to the pitch shifting.

But for me the gaps would not be a problem and toggling from delay to reverb worked well.
Click to expand...
It's good to know your situation and I'm pleased you're happy with your setup. Thanks for telling us. In case this is of interest to you or anyone else, here's a bit more info. It's not me being defensive, just adding to the conversation... :-)

We're only talking 2-3 months ago and I was running the latest firmware that included a fix for the "pop" when switching presets. Switching presets is always going to consume more time than merely toggling bypass on/off - it's doing more work. Maybe they've written some code so a reload of the engine starts by checking the new preset to see if it's the same algorithm as the one loaded, and with the same routing config, etc. And doesn't reload all the code if it's the same, just the parameters, therefore being quicker. That would explain what you've noticed. But I did notice enough of a gap when playing continuous music to not be happy - hence investigating toggling sides on/off instead.

The SA support rep knew what version of the firmware I was running on my Collider. He was the one who said the buffer was too small to process the first CC command before the second one arrived and was lost. I was just asking him what could be happening.

I was sending MIDI when a new preset was loaded on my Boss ES-5 switcher. The ES-5 seems to be too fast for some pedals. For example, a TC Electronics Plethora X3 I was hoping to use (before then buying the Collider) also had problems processing the three CC commands I was sending to toggle the three effect slots on and off - losing one or two messages every time. But... using a Hotone Ampero Control as the MIDI controller worked properly. Yet a MIDI trace on my computer showed me both devices were sending the same data strings. Some people on the Plethora forum suggested using a MIDI controller that could "pause" between CC commands to give the device time to catch up. Morningstar can do this, apparently, and was a solution many Plethora users were successful with. The Hotone doesn't have a "pause' command, but maybe it's just slow enough for the X3 to work. I never tried it with the Collider, because the answer from SA was plain enough and I have made a commitment to using the ES-5.

So I bought a Boss GT1000 Core just to use as a back end effects processor and it's been great from the operational point of view. It doesn't sound as good as the Collider, and I prefer the modulation effects on the Mobius, but it's doing a good job with delays, reverb, back-end EQ and back-end clean boosts. That doesn't mean I won't now look at a Ventris and Nemesis just to get those Collider sounds, though... Although board space and budget are also factors.

It seems to me that "MIDI enabled" is a moveable feast for some pedal manufacturers and they're learning what MIDI users want to do after releasing their pedals. We (the players) are finding out the hard way sometimes... :-)
 
TheBigDipper said:
The SA support rep knew what version of the firmware I was running on my Collider. He was the one who said the buffer was too small to process the first CC command before the second one arrived and was lost. I was just asking him what could be happening.
Click to expand...
Yes, but either my Luminite adds a small delay between messages behind the scenes, or the fw 1.16 for the Collider does fix this issue specifically because I could send two message "delay on, reverb off" commands as a toggle (reverses values from 0 -> 127 and 127 -> 0) and it flipped the sides nicely.

There is now also a single CC command to do this so that can be used as well so the timing issue should not matter.
 
laxu said:
Yes, but either my Luminite adds a small delay between messages behind the scenes, or the fw 1.16 for the Collider does fix this issue specifically because I could send two message "delay on, reverb off" commands as a toggle (reverses values from 0 -> 127 and 127 -> 0) and it flipped the sides nicely.

There is now also a single CC command to do this so that can be used as well so the timing issue should not matter.
Click to expand...
Can you help me out here? I'm looking at the MIDI Implementation Guide for the Collider on the SA website and I can't see any of those commands that you're suggesting are available. What am I missing? Is it out of date or incomplete? It says CCs 105-108 let you set the two sides as part of loading a new preset. CCs 101-102 only control side A and CCs 103-104 only control side B. They are the only commands I can find that affect bypass/engage status.

But the website only has details about what's in firmware updates up 1.15. It does say that 1.16 is the latest version, but not what's in it!
 
TheBigDipper said:
Can you help me out here? I'm looking at the MIDI Implementation Guide for the Collider on the SA website and I can't see any of those commands that you're suggesting are available. What am I missing? Is it out of date or incomplete? It says CCs 105-108 let you set the two sides as part of loading a new preset. CCs 101-102 only control side A and CCs 103-104 only control side B. They are the only commands I can find that affect bypass/engage status.

But the website only has details about what's in firmware updates up 1.15. It does say that 1.16 is the latest version, but not what's in it!
Click to expand...
Yeah fw 1.16 release notes don't seem to exist anywhere.

There's also a bug with the MIDI mapping in the Neuro Editor that I reported to SA. If you hit the "reset to default" for the MIDI mapping it resets the MIDI mapping according to the MIDI spec document but the editor UI shows the wrong commands for many of the parameters.

But in any case you want to go to the MIDI mapping in Neuro Editor and assign a MIDI CC to "Alternate bypass" or something like that (can't check this atm). Then if you send value 0 = delay on, 127 = reverb on.

So if your MIDI controller supports toggle type messages, you can use this to toggle between 0/127 states aka delay on/reverb on.
 
Thought I'd post an update after using the Collider for more time.

I really like it. A lot of what I said in my initial posts applies, but it's such a convenient pedal.

Editor software works great, and makes me want Strymon's Nixie 2 even more to have the same experience. I love how many configuration options there are to just fine tune how you want the pedal to work.

Preset switching is the yardstick that every other digital pedal should follow. I rarely rely on my MIDI controller to switch them because it's so convenient to do on the pedal.

SA said on TGP that in the next fw they are making the main encoder LED blink based on which side is selected for editing. I think that should help a bit for remembering if you are editing delay or reverb.

The reverbs compare very favorably to what I can get out of my Strymons. Strymon reverbs tend to be darker by default so they are easier to blend in with your sound whereas with SA you definitely want to turn the highs down most of the time.

Delays are a more mixed bag. I like them just fine, but the Volante is still king.

I wish I could pay extra to SA to have access to more of the editor tweakable features and engines of the Nemisis/Ventris. I don't want either of those pedals because they are excessive for my needs and I like the compact one pedal aspect of the Collider.
 
laxu said:
The reverbs compare very favorably to what I can get out of my Strymons. Strymon reverbs tend to be darker by default so they are easier to blend in with your sound whereas with SA you definitely want to turn the highs down most of the time.

Delays are a more mixed bag. I like them just fine, but the Volante is still king.
Click to expand...
Source Audio are the king of reverbs I'd say. I think Strymon does preset switching, spillover, and all that jazz... MUCH better....

But for raw reverb algo's, I think Source Phwoardio take it.

Delays.... fairly even split.
 
I'm coming back from Japan with a SA Nemesis and plan to see what all those extra features provide vs the Collider. Sound should be the same according to SA, Nemesis just has far more options and adjustment.

The only thing missing from the reverb side of the Collider is adjustable pitch shifting, but the delay side is just a bit more limited.
 
A friend of mine got a SA True Spring this weekend and I got to spend a solid few hours with it in front of, and in the loop of, my Mesa TA-30 (with a Vintage 30-loaded open back 1x12.) Overall, I loved it! The controls are wide and sort of asymmetrical, if that makes sense? (tl;dr - it's easy to get yourself in trouble.) But dialed in properly it sounds fantastic - every bit as good as I remember the Fender TreVerb sounding.

Made me fall in love with the TA-30, whereas I'd kind of been struggling with it and its noisy onboard reverb. I was quickly convinced I wanted a True Spring of my own, but he told me I could borrow his whenever I wanted, so I decided to look for something with more modes (namely, plate) and integrated delay, for sake of variety. I've been eyeing the Alexander Space Force for a while, mainly out of curiosity, but the Collider looks a little more robust in terms of an actual delay section. I'll move it to the top of the list. :)
 
P.S. Does anyone know if the True Spring mode in the Collider is literally the same algorithm(s) as found in the SA True Spring pedal? Or is it a subset there of/ gimped in some other way? I presume you don't have any Tremolo in the Collider, but Reverb plus Delay (plus more Reverbs) suits me better than Reverb plus Tremolo anyway.
 
laxu said:
I'm coming back from Japan with a SA Nemesis and plan to see what all those extra features provide vs the Collider. Sound should be the same according to SA, Nemesis just has far more options and adjustment.

The only thing missing from the reverb side of the Collider is adjustable pitch shifting, but the delay side is just a bit more limited.
Click to expand...

I have the Nemesis and the Ventris, great pedals and searching the cloud via the app is a must, lots of great presets from users.

I do wish having the Collider for smaller boards, my needs of reverb and delay are very simple and I love the SA sound.


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