No idea what high gain amp I need

[jonathanthomas83]

I have had and loved a Marshall JCM 800 and a Mesa Dual Rectifier. I also had a Mezzabarba MZero Overdrive and Super Kraken but spend guilt got the first one sent back within the returns period and the latter went back because I just wished it was a Mesa. My issue with the Marshall and Mesa was that if I wanted to use them in the same song, for example, they sounded too different and it wasn't coherent to go from Marshall crunch to Mesa saturation.

I've loved the Cornford MK50 II tones on a Fractal Axe FX III and really liked an SLO 100 for lead stuff, but they lack something for heavy riffs, and I found this with the MZero too, it was so good for lead stuff that it wasn't tight enough or defined for riffing.

So I'm at the point now where I literally have no idea what I'm aiming for. I just know I want to go from crunchy to super saturated but tight, but I would like the lead ability too. Which made me think of a Diezel VH4, but I'm worried it'll have a distinct tone that really doesn't sound like what I've been used to for the best part of 20 years of playing.

Any help would be greatly appreciated and it's not lost on me how spoiled, entitled and first world this all sounds. Please excuse that.

 

[Orvillain]

Hey up Jon.

Forget manufacturers for a minute. What kind of high gain tones are you looking for? If you want crunchy and super saturated, then I wouldn't say a VH4 by itself is the one. It isn't what I think of as tight. It is a beastly monstrous tone, but it is pretty sludgy and thick and ... yeah, sludgy. Nothing like a Dual Rectifier or 5150, for example.

What sort of songs and bands are representative? Not always the best way to pick an amp, but can sometimes be a good starting point.

 

[spawnofthesith]

I'd start with a 5150 III 50 watt and adjust as/if needed

 

[Life Eats Life]

I have had and loved a Marshall JCM 800 and a Mesa Dual Rectifier. I also had a Mezzabarba MZero Overdrive and Super Kraken but spend guilt got the first one send back within the returns period and the latter went back because I just wished it was a Mesa. My issue with the Marshall and Mesa was that if I wanted to use them in the same song, for example, they sounded too different and it wasn't coherent to go from Marshall crunch to Mesa saturation.

I've loved the Cornford MK50 II tones on a Fractal Axe FX III and really liked an SLO 100 for lead stuff, but they lack something for heavy riffs, and I found this with the MZero too, it was so good for lead stuff that it wasn't tight enough of defined for riffing.

So I'm at the point now where I literally have no idea what I'm aiming for. I just know I want to go from crunchy to super saturated but tight, but I would like the lead ability too. Which made me think of a Diezel VH4, but I'm worried it'll have a distinct tone that really doesn't sound like what I've been used to for the best part of 20 years of playing.

Any help would be greatly appreciated and it's not lost on me how spoiled, entitled and first world this all sounds. Please excuse that.

Either a Diezel Herbert or V4.

 

[sleewell]

I'd start with a 5150 III 50 watt and adjust as/if needed

this is the correct answer

 

[Achilles]

and I found this with the MZero too, it was so good for lead stuff that it wasn't tight enough of defined for riffing.

And on the 8th day God created the OD pedal, knowing that at some point in the future it'd be needed to tighten up high gain amps.

 

[jonathanthomas83]

Hey up Jon.

Forget manufacturers for a minute. What kind of high gain tones are you looking for? If you want crunchy and super saturated, then I wouldn't say a VH4 by itself is the one. It isn't what I think of as tight. It is a beastly monstrous tone, but it is pretty sludgy and thick and ... yeah, sludgy. Nothing like a Dual Rectifier or 5150, for example.

What sort of songs and bands are representative? Not always the best way to pick an amp, but can sometimes be a good starting point.

Ah see this is where my terminology fails me. I’ve never played a VH4, but the thud and low end for single note riffs, seems to work when I’ve tried the plugin and NAM captures (closest I’m gonna get without spunking £2.5k). But you’re right, tight isn’t the correct term for that amp, but maybe tight isn’t the correct term for what I’m looking for either, tbh, mate. And you’re also spot on with the saturation, it’s not as saturated as I’d like it to be.

It’s really hard to pinpoint a reference song, but I’ve always traditionally like Tremonti’s tone but I like too many styles of rock/hard rock/metal to hone in on that one Dual Rec sound. I’ve also loved 80s hair metal, modded Marshall etc, but again, don’t want to shoehorn myself into that bracket, so I’ve tried to forge my own way over the years.

The 5150 III recommendations aren’t too far off, not a bad shout, guys.

 

[jonathanthomas83]

And on the 8th day God created the OD pedal, knowing that at some point in the future it'd be needed to tighten up high gain amps.

Ha, true mate. It’s not that easy with the MZero though, TS’ usually do that job better on the other channels, not the lead channel. Not a bad thing, just not easy and not what I’m after. I’ve heard that the SLO is similar in that respect.

 

[Achilles]

It’s not that easy with the MZero though.

My #1 is the MZero's baby brother, the Skill, and I've found a TC Integrated pre-amp type pedal does the trick.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Which Rectifier did you have? you could feasibly set one channel in vintage mode for a more Marshall thing, and the other in modern for the classic recto sound.

Krank are quite a good middle ground between Marshall bite and mids, and Mesa size. Good for rhythm and lead too but not great for crunch.

Uberschall is killer for high gain, but the clean sound is a bit so so. The Uber Ultra may be worth a look. Same goes for XTC and Helios Eclipse.

Peavey JSX/XXX for a budget option.

If you’re a Tremonti fan his new sig amp might be worth a sniff too.

And for something more unique, maybe Headfirst Alta/Groundzero MOAB or Hellion/Monomyth (probably won’t do the mesa side of things as well though).

 

[FuzzyAce]

So I'm at the point now where I literally have no idea what I'm aiming for.

That could be an issue?
If you have the Axe III already I'd just use that until you get an idea of the real amp you want. Just ask yourself what are your true goals musically and go from there.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

That could be an issue?
If you have the Axe III already I'd just use that until you get an idea of the real amp you want. Just ask yourself what are your true goals musically and go from there.

Also wondering if having the Axe and/or a bucket of plugins might also be adding to the pain. As versatile as some amps are, even with pedals added, if you are trying to match the level of dial-ability of digital stuff in amp world, within 1 or 2 amps, its gonna be challenging.

 

[jonathanthomas83]

I’ve got rid of the fractal and am only using the Diezel plugin to see if the amp is for me. But there’s an air of truth about the options that the fractal has given me over the years and being able to hone in on what it is that I’m after is quite hard. But also, when I had it, I was never satisfied and always wanted an amp.

 

[Achilles]

I was never satisfied and always wanted an amp.

Preach!

My last full time digital was the QC and I'd made little placards with the amp logos that match
which preset I was using cause I'd be jonesing for the real thing so bad.

Looked like this most of the time for the Mesa Mark III red capture.

 

[TheTrueZoltan!]

Badlander?

 

[la szum]

I am of the opinion that there is not one amp to rule them all. Every amp is a compromise
to one degree or another. And if you have varied and diverse tastes then every amp can be
a massive compromise when trying to cover all of those styles.

 

[Orvillain]

I think you need:

- A Marshall JVM
- An Orange Rockerverb
- A 5150 variant
- A Rectifier variant
- Something old and crusty like a Laney VH100R

 

[jonathanthomas83]

Badlander?

I bloody love this idea.

I think you need:

- A Marshall JVM
- An Orange Rockerverb
- A 5150 variant
- A Rectifier variant
- Something old and crusty like a Laney VH100R

Thank you, mate, always appreciate your advice. Interested in why you recommended the Rockerverb for my needs as that’s not an amp that’s ever occurred to me, but you have me curious now! And I agree with everything else you’ve mentioned too.

I am of the opinion that there is not one amp to rule them all. Every amp is a compromise
to one degree or another. And if you have varied and diverse tastes then every amp can be
a massive compromise when trying to cover all of those styles.

Agreed.

 

[Orvillain]

Interested in why you recommended the Rockerverb for my needs as that’s not an amp that’s ever occurred to me, but you have me curious now!

Honestly, it is a GREAT high-gain head. The MKIII version has a built in attenuator, which means you can push the volume on the gain channel higher, which pushes the phase inverter harder I believe, and imparts a really cool character onto the tone. Then you can use the attenuator to bring it back down to sensible volume levels. You can do the same with the clean channel and get a sort of pseudo Plexi type tone. It takes drive pedals very well, is very quiet compared to the other typical high-gainers out there, and if you need to tighten it up, putting a boost or an EQ pedal in front of it works wonders. It is a really versatile amp.

At the moment these are the amps I've got:

- Diezel VH4
- Diezel Hagen
- Diezel D-Moll
- Peavey 6505+ (currently with my tech!)
- Mesa Boogie Dual Rectifier 2018 MW
- Laney VH100R
- Marshall JVM410HJS
- Orange Rockerverb MK3 100watt

They are all great, and all sound quite different from one another. I'd say the tightest ones are probably the JVM and the 6505+. The loosest ones are the VH4 and the Dual Rectifier. The others are a spectrum in between.

And honestly, I look at my Axe FX III right now... and I just think.... I should probably sell it!

(But it too is really good for recording, so I'll probably just keep it!)

 

[spawnofthesith]

@Orvillain I want your D-Moll