Need some help with string skipping technique

[Ed DeGenaro]

So I've been working on the solo from "Doomsayer" by Darkest Hour, and have been struggling to get the string skipping part up to speed beyond 110bpm or so, as it's a relatively new lead technique to me. Here is an example from it, played at 130bpm and alternate picked starting with a downstroke:

View attachment 60301

Kris Norris (the former lead guitarist who wrote this solo) plays this with a very relaxed grip, moving only his forearm for up/down motion and exclusively his thumb and index fingers for picking - his wrist almost never moves. It's odd to me as I use more of a static grip and use my wrist for fast alternate picking, so it's hard to emulate him here.

I'm sure this sort of lick shows up in other genres though - how do you approach it picking mechanics wise?

If id not slur it it'd economy pick it. As in
D U U U D D

Or more likely start it on up stroke.

Now all that said my go to be
Pick pull off
Pick pull off
Pick sweep hammer
Or hammer on from nowhere pick hammer

 

[Eagle]

Yes most people conform their playing to the picking comfort zone and if that’s different to yours playing the exact same sequence can sometimes be disproportionately difficult.

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

You can easily start with an upstroke to flip the escape or hammer a note and use economy for almost anything.
If I play two notes per string it’s effectively the same as alternating but as soon as it deviates because of the music it conforms to economy.

Actually what I found is that the picking pattern no matter if starting on up or down is simple enough that moving the the arm it won't be much different than a blues lick.

Most guys I know that struggle with it really don't have the right hand as issue.

As in if they can play it left hand only the right isn't as much an issue as they think.

 

[RiffDuck]

If id not slur it it'd economy pick it. As in
D U U U D D

Or more likely start it on up stroke.

Now all that said my go to be
Pick pull off
Pick pull off
Pick sweep hammer
Or hammer on from nowhere pick hammer

I've found a few similar ways to play it; the way where I found the most speed was to simply start with a pull-off and comfortably upstroke the following G and D strings. But you still have to account for the following sequences like I posed above. However, this whole part of the solo wasn't written to be played as a smoother sequence of hammer-ons/pull-offs and sweeps, which give it a different character than alternate picking as Kris does. I view it as a challenge (I might never accomplish but I'm trying!) to play it as he wrote it.

The good news is the guitarist that replaced him can't play the solo smoothly at all, and he does indeed use a mix of hammer-ons and sweeps up further up on the fretboard, which I assume is in his comfort zone kind of like people are suggesting here.

As far as I can tell though Kris Norris is the only person who can alternate pick the entire thing cleanly, which makes the challenge all that more difficult!

 

[RiffDuck]

Whenever you have an odd # of notes on a string, you have to use 2-way pickslanting.

So, assuming a downstroke to begin, those first 4 notes would use downward pickslanting, but as you ascend, the pickslant needs to switch to upward.

In a similar riff I was practicing, I found that I could play 4 notes on skipped strings much faster using a downward pickslant, than I could using an upward pickslant. Or to state it another way, I'm faster starting on a downstroke (assuming an even # of notes per string.)

I'd wager most of us have a preferred pick slant direction/ starting stroke direction, that's faster than the other way, which is one reason Petrucci said to practice riffs starting with a downstroke, but also starting with an upstroke.

Since no matter which stroke you prefer to start with, you'll end up using both pickslants, I'd start by seeing if you can pick skipped notes slanting either way at the same speed. If not, I'd focus in on getting that dealt with first, by drilling a simpler riff, (something like a 2 nps Pentatonic riff, w/o the skipped strings) using your weaker slant direction.

If you can play both directions of pickslant equally as fast, then you're ahead of the game. And can ignore my advice.

Oh man I'm just seeing your input here, I'm glad someone is finally getting that I am focused on alternate picking it as it was written!

I understand slanting, and have been toying with varying levels of pick slant for this specific sequence, as it's definitely required. What about wrist movement, though? Are you angling your hand down between skipped strings, or moving your forearm up and down so that your wrist remains at the same angle?

Also, this is the whole part of the solo for further context, or if any shredders here want to give it a spin, it's freakin' sick either way. I have painstakingly transcribed this based on videos of Kris playing it:

Additionally, here is Kris himself playing the part (0:35 in case timestamp doesn't work) so you can see he alternate picks it all:



If you see something I don't with how he plays it, please let me know!

 

[Tito83]

Oh man I'm just seeing your input here, I'm glad someone is finally getting that I am focused on alternate picking it as it was written!

I understand slanting, and have been toying with varying levels of pick slant for this specific sequence, as it's definitely required. What about wrist movement, though? Are you angling your hand down between skipped strings, or moving your forearm up and down so that your wrist remains at the same angle?

Also, this is the whole part of the solo for further context, or if any shredders here want to give it a spin, it's freakin' sick either way. I have painstakingly transcribed this based on videos of Kris playing it:

View attachment 60379


Additionally, here is Kris himself playing the part (0:35 in case timestamp doesn't work) so you can see he alternate picks it all:



If you see something I don't with how he plays it, please let me know!

To me it doesn't look like he's picking the second note, seems like a pull off. Even if he did, the really awkward part is when you shift the direction of the line. To me to first 5 notes looks he picks D (pull off) D U D, but then I only see one one down movement and an up for three notes, which makes me believe he's sweep picking from the 4th to the 3rd string. From the bottom note it goes D D U D U. So he's just starting the pattern with a down stroke out of habit, the pattern actually loops with the top note being played with an up stroke. The slow motion tends to make things out of sync, but to me it makes sense.

There's no really right way, I would not worry much about it, the only thing that matters in the end is that you can play it cleanly and with consistency. Sure, it does help to try to get how he actual guy does this, but you can also look at other solutions. Paul Gilbert does this a lot, he shows this in a few of his video lessons; Kiko Loureiro also - Angra's Nova Era has a section that use this shape moving through a chord progression like this, but a different pattern. As far as I remember they play it differently. And, of course, you could make up your own way of playing the line that fits better your technique.

 

[RiffDuck]

To me it doesn't look like he's picking the second note, seems like a pull off. Even if he did, the really awkward part is when you shift the direction of the line. To me to first 5 notes looks he picks D (pull off) D U D, but then I only see one one down movement and an up for three notes, which makes me believe he's sweep picking from the 4th to the 3rd string. From the bottom note it goes D D U D U. So he's just starting the pattern with a down stroke out of habit, the pattern actually looks with the top note being played with an up stroke. The slow motion tends to make things out of sync, but to me it makes sense.

There's no really right way, I would not worry much about it, the only thing that matters in the end is that you can play it cleanly and with consistency. Sure, it does help to try to get how he actual guy does this, but you can also look at other solutions. Paul Gilbert does this a lot, he shows this in a few of his video lessons; Kiko Loureiro also - Angra's Nova Era has a section that use this shape moving through a chord progression like this, but a different pattern. As far as I remember they play it differently. And, of course, you could make up your own way of playing the line that fits better your technique.

Thanks for the input! You're probably right, I may be putting too much thought into the exact picking pattern.



Here's a little more clear clip of him playing it, and I think you're also right that you just can't really tell exactly what he's picking and what he isn't - like I'm starting to wonder if the E string notes (D string in the proper CGCFAD tuning) are also just a single stroke pull-offs, and he could easily be upstroking in 100 places where I think he's downstroking since he has such minimal hand movement.

I'm working on it now and it's just far easier all around by mixing in hammer-ons/pull-offs, so at this point it's like do I want to play the solo soon or play it "correctly" in 2072 lol

 

[Tito83]

Thanks for the input! You're probably right, I may be putting too much thought into the exact picking pattern.



Here's a little more clear clip of him playing it, and I think you're also right that you just can't really tell exactly what he's picking and what he isn't - like I'm starting to wonder if the E string notes (D string in the proper CGCFAD tuning) are also just a single stroke pull-offs, and he could easily be upstroking in 100 places where I think he's downstroking since he has such minimal hand movement.

I'm working on it now and it's just far easier all around by mixing in hammer-ons/pull-offs, so at this point it's like do I want to play the solo soon or play it "correctly" in 2072 lol

This one is a little better and, while I'm not 100% sure, but it makes me even more convinced the picking goes:

1st D (pull off) 3rd D U 4th D 3rd D U 1st D U (pull off) etc

But whatever picking pattern you chose, work to make it fluid on a single shape/chord and then work on the position shifts.

 

[RiffDuck]

1st D (pull off) 3rd D U 4th D 3rd D U 1st D U (pull off) etc

This is exactly my "default" way of playing it when I want to play it faster, so I would be very happy to agree with this. At some point I became convinced that he's literally D U D U D U the entire thing, but if others are seeing more pull-offs then that just makes it easier all around.

I don't have a problem with the solo as a whole though, this whole post was just trying to break through my 110bpm plateau, but I think I can do so by adding in hammers/pulls where I see fit.

I actually think the descending arpeggio sweeps are just as tough to do to speed, but that's just practice

 

[Fishbulb]

I wonder if Kris teaches private lessons, might be worth it to reach out if possible.

 

[TSJMajesty]

Oh man I'm just seeing your input here, I'm glad someone is finally getting that I am focused on alternate picking it as it was written!

Right! Andy's known to plow into threads with opinions that have nothing to do with what's being discussed.

I understand slanting, and have been toying with varying levels of pick slant for this specific sequence, as it's definitely required. What about wrist movement, though? Are you angling your hand down between skipped strings, or moving your forearm up and down so that your wrist remains at the same angle?

I've come across shredders who do both- wrist anchored at 1 place, Baxty for example, and they pivot; Others who move across the strings like Jason Richardson. Both of whom were at JP's last camp, and discussed that very topic.

I like to move my hand, which for me, also helps with muting. Ed mentioned in response to one of my posts, that pivoting the wrist will also change the pick angle relative to the strings, which may or may not be an issue for ya.

He also mentioned wrt slant, to exaggerate the motion (not the pivot of the wrist, but more of a rotation type of motion, like how you turn a key in a door lock), until it becomes ingrained in your muscle memory.

I'm finding it just takes a LOT of practice. I can finally get the Innocence Faded solo (which has lots of skipped arpeggios) to about 120 bpm, but it has taken a lot of work.

 

[RiffDuck]

Right! Andy's known to plow into threads with opinions that have nothing to do with what's being discussed.

I've come across shredders who do both- wrist anchored at 1 place, Baxty for example, and they pivot; Others who move across the strings like Jason Richardson. Both of whom were at JP's last camp, and discussed that very topic.

I like to move my hand, which for me, also helps with muting. Ed mentioned in response to one of my posts, that pivoting the wrist will also change the pick angle relative to the strings, which may or may not be an issue for ya.

He also mentioned wrt slant, to exaggerate the motion (not the pivot of the wrist, but more of a rotation type of motion, like how you turn a key in a door lock), until it becomes ingrained in your muscle memory.

I'm finding it just takes a LOT of practice. I can finally get the Innocence Faded solo (which has lots of skipped arpeggios) to about 120 bpm, but it has taken a lot of work.

That’s exactly my concern with bending the wrist, as it compromises my picking slant, but I’m going to keep playing with it. I should also specify that I’m just a couple of years into lead playing, so I’m still getting all the techniques and ergonomics down.

Baxty is exactly who I had in mind for the forearm moving though, since he moves his fist up and down at the same angle while alternative picking rather aggressively (at least visually), which contrasts with how Kris Norris does it for this solo, where he’s gentle with very little movement, so I found myself wondering which method actually works best for this sort of thing.

Have you given this specific lick a try to see what works for you if you were to play it? You seem to know your way around leads

 

[TSJMajesty]

That’s exactly my concern with bending the wrist, as it compromises my picking slant,

Just so we're on the same page wrt wrist motions- the way it works for me, pick slant is a rotation of the wrist like turning a key in a door lock. The wrist rotation to reach all the strings is like how you move your wrist when shaking someone's hand. So if you do both, you're actually rotating your wrist in 2 different axes. Which is probably another reason I tend to move my hand across the strings to reach all of them, so I only have to focus on one type of wrist movement.

but I’m going to keep playing with it. I should also specify that I’m just a couple of years into lead playing, so I’m still getting all the techniques and ergonomics down.

Baxty is exactly who I had in mind for the forearm moving though, since he moves his fist up and down at the same angle while alternative picking rather aggressively (at least visually), which contrasts with how Kris Norris does it for this solo, where he’s gentle with very little movement, so I found myself wondering which method actually works best for this sort of thing.

Have you given this specific lick a try to see what works for you if you were to play it? You seem to know your way around leads

I have tried it, and the closest thing to something I've practiced in the past was a Paul Gilbert "lesson", that basically took that opening shape, and ran it thru a series of chords, changing the shape to accommodate whether they were major or minor. But he pulled-off & hammered-on the 2 notes on the upper and lower strings.

If picked, the "turn around" note on the bottom is less than what I've practiced, so it would take me some time to get it fluid. But I'd approach it the same way I do the arpeggios in Innocence Faded. Which is to say, I'd pick the whole thing (I tend to stay with how it's written, even if it's harder for me, because I want to further develop my weaker techniques), I'd work on the changing pick slants, and I'd move my hand, as opposed to rotating my wrist to reach all the strings.

I try to keep my technique the same in those 3 aspects.

I stopped playing for a number of years, but when I picked it up again, I vowed to fix and/or change several habits that I felt weren't working for me. One of which was, I would rotate my palm and lift over a string, when switching strings, which I knew was hugely inefficient, but it took a lot of practice to fix. That was about the time I discovered pick slanting.

I think certain ergonomics need to be followed (like you need some type of anchor point for your picking hand, or there's no way you'll remain accurate at high speeds), but with others, I think you have to try the various ergonomics, if you will, and kinda decide for yourself which works best.

And if you end up landing on a certain way of playing- the way you hold the pick, how you mute strings, wrist movements, etc.- that work well for you, stay with them as long as they continue to give you the results you want, but if something comes along where you have to adapt, I say that's fine too.

What I mean by that is, most guitarists who play fast will tell you to keep your motion from the wrist, and not your entire forearm. But then you see some guys who will switch to a completely different technique, when playing something that's even faster than their own limits. Like when EVH does his "flamenco" picking movements in Little Guitars, or when Petrucci uses his forearm when playing the blisteringly fast part in Night Terror. He even said at his camp, that he had to develop a different motion to play that part.



One more thing I'll mention- wrt to Baxty, it sounds like you're saying he moves his hand across the strings (If I'm reading you right.) In the class I sat in on, he said the opposite- He anchors the corner of his palm on the bridge, and rotates his wrist to reach the strings. But again, this is totally different than the way Jason Richardson will demonstrate his motion in that regard, so obviously they BOTH work quite well!!

Which goes back to what I said earlier- I think you have to figure out these sorts of details for yourself. I don't believe in "one size fits all." I mean, just look at the way Marty Freidman holds his hand when he shreds.

One more thing I'll add, since you said you are new to lead-playing... you WILL make gains in even hard stuff, up to your own natural limits, but the amount of practice it takes for you to get there depends on factors like age. I'm 62, so this shit takes me a long time to get down.

 

[RiffDuck]

Just so we're on the same page wrt wrist motions- the way it works for me, pick slant is a rotation of the wrist like turning a key in a door lock. The wrist rotation to reach all the strings is like how you move your wrist when shaking someone's hand. So if you do both, you're actually rotating your wrist in 2 different axes. Which is probably another reason I tend to move my hand across the strings to reach all of them, so I only have to focus on one type of wrist movement.

To be clear, I'm referring to the vertical pick slanting, not the "lock turning" one. I do the lock turning one for everything, as I've been playing metal off and on for around 20 years and you learn pretty quickly how to slant for chugging. For the vertical pick slanting, I've learned in the past couple of years of learning lead play I've learned it's a pretty huge deal for fast picking in between strings depending on whether you're ascending or descending.

One more thing I'll mention- wrt to Baxty, it sounds like you're saying he moves his hand across the strings (If I'm reading you right.) In the class I sat in on, he said the opposite- He anchors the corner of his palm on the bridge, and rotates his wrist to reach the strings. But again, this is totally different than the way Jason Richardson will demonstrate his motion in that regard, so obviously they BOTH work quite well!!

This is very good to know! I'm very familiar with both guitarists, but I'll have to look up more of them talking about their technique. Baxty does also play often on 7-8 strings, so what I was referring to may have been from watching him play on one of those, where he would have to move his entire hand more often instead of simply rotating off an anchored point, maybe that just stuck in my head. But for what it's worth, I play similarly, where I anchor my palm on the bridge (I'm always playing metal anyways, chuggy chug chug) and rotate it like a clock hand to hit higher strings. Sometimes my pinky anchors for no apparent reason, sometimes it doesn't.

And if you end up landing on a certain way of playing- the way you hold the pick, how you mute strings, wrist movements, etc.- that work well for you, stay with them as long as they continue to give you the results you want, but if something comes along where you have to adapt, I say that's fine too.

This is probably the best summary for the rest of your very thoughtful response, and I really like it. I've been playing off and on since the early 2000s, so there's certain aspects of my technique I'll never be able to change, but it has worked for me up to now. Like I'll never be able to transition into a "proper" thumb-flat-on-the-back neck grip by this point, and I'll never be able to stop randomly anchoring my pinky with my picking hand no matter how many shiny spots it puts on my guitars. But since starting really focusing on leads I've still been able to incorporate a ton of different new techniques for picking faster across strings, and like you suggested, I've been able to make them work as a whole without needing to make any major adjustments. And at least I don't have a weirdass picking technique lol

 

[TSJMajesty]

I'll never be able to stop randomly anchoring my pinky with my picking hand no matter how many shiny spots it puts on my guitars.

Haha

I have an early 80's Silverburst Les Paul that has the same wear all over it as Adam Jones', complete with a hole through the paint where I used to always rest my pinky.

But between putting a lot of faith into what Bernth says about proper technique- a closed grip can pick faster, which does seem true for me in most cases,- and starting to see light fingernail scratches on my oldest Majesty, along with the beginnings of wearing through the paint right where the pickup rout is for the screws, I ended up switching to a closed grip.

Like any change of your technique though, it didn't feel natural at first, but I'm happier. And my guitars' finish is too.

I actually have more control if I set my last 2 fingers down on the guitar, if it's just- pick as fast as I can. But now that I'm used to it, if I rest my pinky, for anything that involves string changes, especially skipping, it feels like trying to steer a boat with an oar dragging in the water.

 

[TSJMajesty]

Since you mentioned you're starting to transition into playing lead more, I have a thought that might help with how you approach all the different stuff out there that you'll come across...

When I got back to seriously playing, I wanted to become the best player I could be. I'd always just half-assed my solos (this was playing covers), and never really applied myself. Fast forward, and anyone who knows me knows I love everything about John Petrucci's playing/music. His well of ideas is SO DEEP!

But other than very few of his solos, I mainly wanted to learn as many ways as possible to play solos, and cool-sounding licks. So I've tried to just find certain riffs & licks within his solos to learn, as opposed to learning entire solos. I guess I feel like, if I learn one solo, then that's it. I know that solo.

But if instead, I look for..., "Oh, what was that he just played? That sounded cool!" And learn as many of those as I'm able, then I have more to draw from.

Of the 100 or so open tabs I have on my browser, LOL, most are his songs, but not all. Paul Gilbert, the occasional Yngwie lick, Randy Rhoads, etc. Anything technical, that I know will be a challenge. But mostly JP's stuff, since there's SO much to draw from. And he's just my favorite guitarist.

And then there's licks I use to help keep up my dexterity. Like this one from Muse's The Handler. I think it's 130 bpm, and is great for finger strength:

I put the fingerings I use above the tab, to remind me not to skimp on the pinky. Matt plays it 8x's in the song.

However you move forward, one thing's for sure: There's plenty to learn!