Need some help with string skipping technique

[Ed DeGenaro]

So I've been working on the solo from "Doomsayer" by Darkest Hour, and have been struggling to get the string skipping part up to speed beyond 110bpm or so, as it's a relatively new lead technique to me. Here is an example from it, played at 130bpm and alternate picked starting with a downstroke:

View attachment 60301

Kris Norris (the former lead guitarist who wrote this solo) plays this with a very relaxed grip, moving only his forearm for up/down motion and exclusively his thumb and index fingers for picking - his wrist almost never moves. It's odd to me as I use more of a static grip and use my wrist for fast alternate picking, so it's hard to emulate him here.

I'm sure this sort of lick shows up in other genres though - how do you approach it picking mechanics wise?

If id not slur it it'd economy pick it. As in
D U U U D D

Or more likely start it on up stroke.

Now all that said my go to be
Pick pull off
Pick pull off
Pick sweep hammer
Or hammer on from nowhere pick hammer

 

[Eagle]

Yes most people conform their playing to the picking comfort zone and if that’s different to yours playing the exact same sequence can sometimes be disproportionately difficult.

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

You can easily start with an upstroke to flip the escape or hammer a note and use economy for almost anything.
If I play two notes per string it’s effectively the same as alternating but as soon as it deviates because of the music it conforms to economy.

Actually what I found is that the picking pattern no matter if starting on up or down is simple enough that moving the the arm it won't be much different than a blues lick.

Most guys I know that struggle with it really don't have the right hand as issue.

As in if they can play it left hand only the right isn't as much an issue as they think.

 

[RiffDuck]

If id not slur it it'd economy pick it. As in
D U U U D D

Or more likely start it on up stroke.

Now all that said my go to be
Pick pull off
Pick pull off
Pick sweep hammer
Or hammer on from nowhere pick hammer

I've found a few similar ways to play it; the way where I found the most speed was to simply start with a pull-off and comfortably upstroke the following G and D strings. But you still have to account for the following sequences like I posed above. However, this whole part of the solo wasn't written to be played as a smoother sequence of hammer-ons/pull-offs and sweeps, which give it a different character than alternate picking as Kris does. I view it as a challenge (I might never accomplish but I'm trying!) to play it as he wrote it.

The good news is the guitarist that replaced him can't play the solo smoothly at all, and he does indeed use a mix of hammer-ons and sweeps up further up on the fretboard, which I assume is in his comfort zone kind of like people are suggesting here.

As far as I can tell though Kris Norris is the only person who can alternate pick the entire thing cleanly, which makes the challenge all that more difficult!

 

[RiffDuck]

Whenever you have an odd # of notes on a string, you have to use 2-way pickslanting.

So, assuming a downstroke to begin, those first 4 notes would use downward pickslanting, but as you ascend, the pickslant needs to switch to upward.

In a similar riff I was practicing, I found that I could play 4 notes on skipped strings much faster using a downward pickslant, than I could using an upward pickslant. Or to state it another way, I'm faster starting on a downstroke (assuming an even # of notes per string.)

I'd wager most of us have a preferred pick slant direction/ starting stroke direction, that's faster than the other way, which is one reason Petrucci said to practice riffs starting with a downstroke, but also starting with an upstroke.

Since no matter which stroke you prefer to start with, you'll end up using both pickslants, I'd start by seeing if you can pick skipped notes slanting either way at the same speed. If not, I'd focus in on getting that dealt with first, by drilling a simpler riff, (something like a 2 nps Pentatonic riff, w/o the skipped strings) using your weaker slant direction.

If you can play both directions of pickslant equally as fast, then you're ahead of the game. And can ignore my advice.

Oh man I'm just seeing your input here, I'm glad someone is finally getting that I am focused on alternate picking it as it was written!

I understand slanting, and have been toying with varying levels of pick slant for this specific sequence, as it's definitely required. What about wrist movement, though? Are you angling your hand down between skipped strings, or moving your forearm up and down so that your wrist remains at the same angle?

Also, this is the whole part of the solo for further context, or if any shredders here want to give it a spin, it's freakin' sick either way. I have painstakingly transcribed this based on videos of Kris playing it:

Additionally, here is Kris himself playing the part (0:35 in case timestamp doesn't work) so you can see he alternate picks it all:



If you see something I don't with how he plays it, please let me know!

 

[Tito83]

Oh man I'm just seeing your input here, I'm glad someone is finally getting that I am focused on alternate picking it as it was written!

I understand slanting, and have been toying with varying levels of pick slant for this specific sequence, as it's definitely required. What about wrist movement, though? Are you angling your hand down between skipped strings, or moving your forearm up and down so that your wrist remains at the same angle?

Also, this is the whole part of the solo for further context, or if any shredders here want to give it a spin, it's freakin' sick either way. I have painstakingly transcribed this based on videos of Kris playing it:

View attachment 60379


Additionally, here is Kris himself playing the part (0:35 in case timestamp doesn't work) so you can see he alternate picks it all:



If you see something I don't with how he plays it, please let me know!

To me it doesn't look like he's picking the second note, seems like a pull off. Even if he did, the really awkward part is when you shift the direction of the line. To me to first 5 notes looks he picks D (pull off) D U D, but then I only see one one down movement and an up for three notes, which makes me believe he's sweep picking from the 4th to the 3rd string. From the bottom note it goes D D U D U. So he's just starting the pattern with a down stroke out of habit, the pattern actually loops with the top note being played with an up stroke. The slow motion tends to make things out of sync, but to me it makes sense.

There's no really right way, I would not worry much about it, the only thing that matters in the end is that you can play it cleanly and with consistency. Sure, it does help to try to get how he actual guy does this, but you can also look at other solutions. Paul Gilbert does this a lot, he shows this in a few of his video lessons; Kiko Loureiro also - Angra's Nova Era has a section that use this shape moving through a chord progression like this, but a different pattern. As far as I remember they play it differently. And, of course, you could make up your own way of playing the line that fits better your technique.

 

[RiffDuck]

To me it doesn't look like he's picking the second note, seems like a pull off. Even if he did, the really awkward part is when you shift the direction of the line. To me to first 5 notes looks he picks D (pull off) D U D, but then I only see one one down movement and an up for three notes, which makes me believe he's sweep picking from the 4th to the 3rd string. From the bottom note it goes D D U D U. So he's just starting the pattern with a down stroke out of habit, the pattern actually looks with the top note being played with an up stroke. The slow motion tends to make things out of sync, but to me it makes sense.

There's no really right way, I would not worry much about it, the only thing that matters in the end is that you can play it cleanly and with consistency. Sure, it does help to try to get how he actual guy does this, but you can also look at other solutions. Paul Gilbert does this a lot, he shows this in a few of his video lessons; Kiko Loureiro also - Angra's Nova Era has a section that use this shape moving through a chord progression like this, but a different pattern. As far as I remember they play it differently. And, of course, you could make up your own way of playing the line that fits better your technique.

Thanks for the input! You're probably right, I may be putting too much thought into the exact picking pattern.



Here's a little more clear clip of him playing it, and I think you're also right that you just can't really tell exactly what he's picking and what he isn't - like I'm starting to wonder if the E string notes (D string in the proper CGCFAD tuning) are also just a single stroke pull-offs, and he could easily be upstroking in 100 places where I think he's downstroking since he has such minimal hand movement.

I'm working on it now and it's just far easier all around by mixing in hammer-ons/pull-offs, so at this point it's like do I want to play the solo soon or play it "correctly" in 2072 lol

 

[Tito83]

Thanks for the input! You're probably right, I may be putting too much thought into the exact picking pattern.



Here's a little more clear clip of him playing it, and I think you're also right that you just can't really tell exactly what he's picking and what he isn't - like I'm starting to wonder if the E string notes (D string in the proper CGCFAD tuning) are also just a single stroke pull-offs, and he could easily be upstroking in 100 places where I think he's downstroking since he has such minimal hand movement.

I'm working on it now and it's just far easier all around by mixing in hammer-ons/pull-offs, so at this point it's like do I want to play the solo soon or play it "correctly" in 2072 lol

This one is a little better and, while I'm not 100% sure, but it makes me even more convinced the picking goes:

1st D (pull off) 3rd D U 4th D 3rd D U 1st D U (pull off) etc

But whatever picking pattern you chose, work to make it fluid on a single shape/chord and then work on the position shifts.

 

[RiffDuck]

1st D (pull off) 3rd D U 4th D 3rd D U 1st D U (pull off) etc

This is exactly my "default" way of playing it when I want to play it faster, so I would be very happy to agree with this. At some point I became convinced that he's literally D U D U D U the entire thing, but if others are seeing more pull-offs then that just makes it easier all around.

I don't have a problem with the solo as a whole though, this whole post was just trying to break through my 110bpm plateau, but I think I can do so by adding in hammers/pulls where I see fit.

I actually think the descending arpeggio sweeps are just as tough to do to speed, but that's just practice

 

[Fishbulb]

I wonder if Kris teaches private lessons, might be worth it to reach out if possible.

 

[TSJMajesty]

Oh man I'm just seeing your input here, I'm glad someone is finally getting that I am focused on alternate picking it as it was written!

Right! Andy's known to plow into threads with opinions that have nothing to do with what's being discussed.

I understand slanting, and have been toying with varying levels of pick slant for this specific sequence, as it's definitely required. What about wrist movement, though? Are you angling your hand down between skipped strings, or moving your forearm up and down so that your wrist remains at the same angle?

I've come across shredders who do both- wrist anchored at 1 place, Baxty for example, and they pivot; Others who move across the strings like Jason Richardson. Both of whom were at JP's last camp, and discussed that very topic.

I like to move my hand, which for me, also helps with muting. Ed mentioned in response to one of my posts, that pivoting the wrist will also change the pick angle relative to the strings, which may or may not be an issue for ya.

He also mentioned wrt slant, to exaggerate the motion (not the pivot of the wrist, but more of a rotation type of motion, like how you turn a key in a door lock), until it becomes ingrained in your muscle memory.

I'm finding it just takes a LOT of practice. I can finally get the Innocence Faded solo (which has lots of skipped arpeggios) to about 120 bpm, but it has taken a lot of work.