NDSP Quad Cortex

[Whizzinby]

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

I'm sorry, I don't understand. What features are you saying were promised for the initial version that were not included? I'm only aware of the reverse: they said the editor would not be included in the initial version, but it was included.

I have t paid any attention to the Stadium stuff because I just don’t GAF, but this sounds like it is headed in slippery slope directions towards annoying? Helix team has a much stronger track record of delivering on promises, but even being honest about a feature being in future plans, not launch plans, is a LITTLE annoying? While they’ve always delivered, one screw up can do a lot of damage. See FM3 headphone gate.

 

[dean701]

I'm sorry, I don't understand. What features are you saying were promised for the initial version that were not included? I'm only aware of the reverse: they said the editor would not be included in the initial version, but it was included.

that simply proves my case. They said that the editor wouldn't be ready for the initial release. That is them publicly admitting that the product is not completely ready at launch. Proxy will be included in 1.3 (not at launch)
The whole topic revolves around what is on the box at launch. Not whether it's coming, not that it will be a month away, not that the vendor is publicly advertising that it is coming.
Like I said L6 will do it. Kemper? who cares at this point?

 

[LP59]

Helix team has a much stronger track record of delivering on promises, but even being honest about a feature being in future plans, not launch plans, is a LITTLE annoying?

Delivering a product that is designed to grow in the future and being open about those future plans IMHO is a good thing, not an annoyance.

Failing to deliver a feature that was promised in the initial Stadium version would be an annoyance, but dean701 hasn't been able to cite any such missing features and I'm not aware of any.

 

[Lysander]

Man, we had exactly two missing features for Stadium at launch: Showcase, and Proxy. Both were announced on launch date, and promised by early 2026. Showcase got released last December with 1.2.1, and Proxy is now confirmed for March.

This is a far cry from promising features on pre-release and failing to deliver on them [checks watch] 5 years down the line. Trust is hard earned.

Not to say that NDSP hasn't given the QC plenty of nice updates in that period, mind you, but the comparison with other companies in the industry on that regards is bananas.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

Failing to deliver a feature that was promised in the initial Stadium version would be an annoyance, but dean701 hasn't been able to cite such a feature and I'm not aware of any.

Another word for that is … a lie. That would have been way more than an “annoyance” on a product that expensive.

Like I said, Team Helix is certainly the most robust in terms of “what happens if Bob gets hit by a train tomorrow?” Catastrophes, but I don’t see the benefit of talking about future vision of the product. If it’s coming out on a timeframe where it’s “okay to talk about it” what is the benefit of talking about it now? Talk about it when it’s released and let that drive sales.

 

[DrewJD82]

Honestly @DrewJD82, you're not making a whole ton of sense to me. I've certainly been known to hate on NeuralDSP and the QC, but I try to keep a level head about it. I don't understand why "buy it for what it does now" is a sentiment that you think shouldn't exist when it comes to premium gear. In my view, it is a pretty reasonable way for someone to handle their expectations.

A trivial example. I'm a Fractal user, and I'm used to being able to route the "shunts" where ever I want, criss-crossing all over the 4x12 grid. I then buy a Quad Cortex, all the while thinking to myself, "no worries, I'm sure they'll add that feature in the future - this is premium gear!"

.... I mean.... spelt out like that, I'm a bit of a fucking idiot for thinking that they'll add that feature, as I lay down my credit card, right?

I would have completely misunderstood the intent of the product, and the desired user experience. If I then have the temerity to get uppity that after a few years they've not added the feature that I had baselessly hyped myself up over .... it isn't really NeuralDSP's fault in such a situation, and as a consumer, I really need my head examined!

And people do this stuff all the time. It is quite funny and tragic in a way.

So... I think I asked it before, but what are the tangible things that Neural haven't delivered on, from their original pre-orders feature list?

You’re not getting my point, this has nothing to do with not getting specific features you want and is 100% to do with the fact we, as consumers, have allowed the “It’s not finished yet, but buy it anyway and we’ll get to that shit later” model to enter the gear world. Previous to the QC, I only saw this stuff happen in video games, but it most certainly existed in other areas of the tech world as well.

You don’t go buy a new vehicle that looks like it’s ready to drive off the lot, only to find that it only moves forward in gears 1, 3 and 5 because the maker is still figuring out how to make it move forward in gears 2 and 4, you buy a vehicle that’s ready to go the day you buy it. The same goes for any physical product. I would love to see a company try putting forth a product with the same logic as the tech world, Hasbro releases some new action figures “Folks, these are going to be a hit with your kids! Sure, they’re only 75% completed now but they can start playing with them and maybe pretend they’re still growing! Next year when we have the legs completed they’ll have a blast!”

I don’t believe that just because that model exists in the tech world that it HAS to be a feature of the gear world that utilizes technology, but realize it’s already too late and I think it absolutely fucking blows that the common consumer is happy* with this model. They’re so happy with it that a company can sell you a product that’s 75% complete and when you show up for a status update on the remaining 25%, the consumers who got their shit already will tell you you’re entitled, a whiner and you’re the problem, it’s definitely not the company that hasn’t upheld their word. You should just get over it, it’s just the way it is.

I think it’s irresponsible on the consumer’s end to support that model, rather than demanding the model changes. It’s saying “I will gladly pay you 100% of the cost for 75% of your product and if you don’t get me that last 25%, well, it is what it is and I should stop being entitled to 100% of my money”

As for specific items they haven’t delivered, it wasn’t the point of my gripe and I haven’t paid attention in quite a while. It doesn’t really matter anyway because their customers are so thrilled to not have it they’re lining up for seconds. And before someone uses that last bit as a point of “Shouldn’t that tell you that while the company didn’t deliver what they said they would, what they DID deliver was so good people didn’t care?”, because to that my reply is “You’re merely lucky it worked out that way, there was no guarantee it was going to go this way and this model will always be a gamble, rather than confirmation you’re getting exactly what you want, which I find irresp

 

[LP59]

Another word for that is … a lie. That would have been way more than an “annoyance” on a product that expensive.

....but no such lie exists in the case of the Stadium. They delivered what they promised, so it's hard to understand your point. If you know of something they promised, but failed to deliver, please share that with us.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

....but no such lie exists in the case of the Stadium. They delivered what they promised, so it's hard to understand your point. If you know of something they promised, but failed to deliver, please share that with us.

i was commenting on YOUR hypothetical, dude. It’s all good!

 

[SymphonicDischord]

Another word for that is … a lie. That would have been way more than an “annoyance” on a product that expensive.

Like I said, Team Helix is certainly the most robust in terms of “what happens if Bob gets hit by a train tomorrow?” Catastrophes, but I don’t see the benefit of talking about future vision of the product. If it’s coming out on a timeframe where it’s “okay to talk about it” what is the benefit of talking about it now? Talk about it when it’s released and let that drive sales.

To be fair, I do recall DI on this forum and I can only assume TOP (and maybe other social media channels, no idea) did mention that if Showcase was to be available at launch, they were going to miss their target release date, the overwhelming consensus here anyway was ship it as is, we can wait for Showcase in a firmware update. I’m guessing that was the case everywhere with his straw poll.

 

[Orvillain]

@DrewJD82

I think we’re actually talking past each other.

I’m not defending unfinished products, and I’m not saying companies should be allowed to ship vaporware. What I am saying is that buying a product based on what you hope or assume it will become, and then getting angry when that future doesn’t arrive, isn’t a particularly logical position either.

"Buy it for what it does now" isn’t an anti-consumer sentiment. It’s basic expectation management.

If I buy a Quad Cortex knowing it doesn’t support freeform grid routing, while telling myself "they’ll definitely add that later because this is premium gear", that’s on me. I’ve misunderstood the intent of the product and projected a workflow onto it that was never guaranteed.
At that point, getting salty years later because my imagined roadmap didn’t happen isn’t really a failure of the manufacturer - it’s a failure of my own assumptions.

There’s an important distinction here:
• A company failing to deliver explicitly promised features
• A user convincing themselves a product will eventually turn into something else

The first is absolutely fair to criticise.

The second happens all the time, and it’s largely self-inflicted.

You can oppose "buy now, finish later" and still accept that consumers have a responsibility not to hype themselves into disappointment.

Those positions are not mutually exclusive.

So, again: what did Neural explicitly promise to deliver, and then fail to deliver? It really does matter. Because without that, the discussion just collapses into subjective expectations and emotional reactions rather than anything concrete.

And like it or not, consumer behaviour is a huge part of why the "buy now, finish later" model exists in the first place.

As someone looking at shipping a product within the next year, there are really serious considerations I need to make about what goes into version 1.0. If I put too much in it, I miss the deadline. If I put too much in it, I risk the competition beating me to the pip. If I put too much in it, I risk never finishing the thing, and just having it sat on the shelf forever and a day.

As a company making music gear, you do have a responsibility to get your thing out there, get feedback, and then use the feedback to shape the future. You can't build in a vacuum, until something is "perfect" - because perfect, quite simply, is a moving target.

But back to the QC - asserting things like 75% complete at launch, is simply projection I'm afraid. As much as I might not have liked it, there were people absolutely cracking on with using the thing, despite that missing 25% of features that you might think was mission critical. The proof is right before your very eyes.

 

[Chocol8]

Who knows TINA was announced with fanfare 18 months ago, promising way faster, smarter (sic) and accurate amp models than ever before.



I think the QC got two new amp models since.

My best guess is that once they started working with it, they pivoted towards parametric captures and that will be the next major update to QC capture tech. In theory, there is a lot of coding to do for the capture, training, and the playback pieces, but once they have that all working together, TINA might be able to turn out content on a multiple "captured models" per day pace. It could be more upfront work but ultimately much more efficient than a hybrid model/capture approach they were initially thinking.

 

[LP59]

So, again: what did Neural explicitly promise to deliver, and then fail to deliver? It really does matter. Because without that, the discussion just collapses into subjective expectations and emotional reactions rather than anything concrete.

I'm curious about this too. All I'm seeing are hypotheticals. What promises did NDSP or Line6 fail to deliver?

 

[dean701]

Line 6 should have released their device when Proxy and Showcase were on it.
NDSP should have released when their product had all of the advertised features including PCOM.
It's really that simple.
These aren't added Amps and effects that happen during the life cycle of the product. They are the key advertised selling points.

 

[SeeD]

In my mind, Fractal was the first in this space to make regular firmware updates a thing. Even then it was taking a “finished” product and updating it with cool new features and upgrades. And because they showed that ability and willingness, people asked for things that wouldn’t have been considered part of the products and Fractal actually delivered some of those things. After a while the Fractals were significantly different than they were at launch.

Yes Fractal did this and it was fun.... but also really bad, as for every FW update something did break.. `Presets` `blocks` `amps` efx`s did break all the time through the years. Sure we got `free things` but folks that make music can not have things `not sound the same` when trying to update to new things.
I got feed up with this, and got a QC, and my presets from 5 years ago still sounds good and work.

Shiny new thing did come with a cost from Fractal.

I wonder if NDSP did this (break sounds all the time) and what would Fractal users say then?? haha!

 

[LP59]

Line 6 should have released their device when Proxy and Showcase were on it.
NDSP should have released when their product had all of the advertised features including PCOM.
It's really that simple.
These aren't added Amps and effects that happen during the life cycle of the product. They are the key advertised selling points.

What you call key selling points could also be considered being open and communicative about future plans.

 

[AlbertA]

Line 6 should have released their device when Proxy and Showcase were on it.
NDSP should have released when their product had all of the advertised features including PCOM.
It's really that simple.
These aren't added Amps and effects that happen during the life cycle of the product. They are the key advertised selling points.

eh - let the market decide. We are adults here.

I ended up buying he Helix Stadium XL simply because I could get a 15% discount - that was enough buffer for me to wait for those features and in the mean time I've enjoyed my time with it.

@DrewJD82 I get your rant (though I disagree with it) but it seems awfully biased to just NDSP (Given you are posting in this thread) - it could as easily apply to Line6 and others - so why not make this rant in the rant section rather than alienating the adults here that have made their choices and gotten their quad cortex's and minis?

I get it - it takes two to Tango - its a symbiotic relationship between producer and consumer but as an adult I have a choice to simply wait until (if ever) those features I deem important are released. Why should others be denied making a different choice to buy early and wait for whatever features at their own risk of ever happening, while at the same time enjoying the features that did ship?

 

[SeeD]

Man, we had exactly two missing features for Stadium at launch: Showcase, and Proxy. Both were announced on launch date, and promised by early 2026. Showcase got released last December with 1.2.1, and Proxy is now confirmed for March.

This is a far cry from promising features on pre-release and failing to deliver on them [checks watch] 5 years down the line. Trust is hard earned.

Not to say that NDSP hasn't given the QC plenty of nice updates in that period, mind you, but the comparison with other companies in the industry on that regards is bananas.

NDSP QC is 5 years old
Line6 have been around for 27 years? First POD in 1998
Fractal Audio - 19 years - 2006

 

[Chocol8]

Line 6 should have released their device when Proxy and Showcase were on it.
NDSP should have released when their product had all of the advertised features including PCOM.
It's really that simple.

No it's not that simple. A lot of people may want the device now and not care about those features or may want to use the features it has while waiting. Who the fuck are you to tell everybody else they should have to wait? That's complete BS!!!

There are significant business reasons to release something knowing it will need updates. Try coordinating hardware and software development along with overseas third party manufacturing such that everything gets done just as soon as the production hardware is ready to ship in volume. Not cheap or easy.

Line 6 was pretty open about what it had ant launch and what will take time. As long as they deliver what they promised in a reasonable time frame, there is nothing wrong with what they have done. Consumers have all the information they need to make an informed choice. I chose not to pre-order despite the MF coupons because I decided Proxy was too important for me. Others in this forum ordered feeling like they have no use for Proxy.

What NDSP did was over promise and under deliver. To make things worse, they seemed to be putting money and resources towards other products before they delivered on the way overdue QC promises. That's definitely crossing a line for me. I think it should have been all hands on deck working overtime to deliver the product they sold. But, that's ME, anyone else can decide how they feel about it and make up their own mind.

 

[Chocol8]

NDSP QC is 5 years old

The company had been around a couple years before QC was announced. It was their first hardware product and that I think was the cause of their problems. They didn't know what they didn't know and how difficult some things would prove to be.