Levels hitting the amp (in dBu) when reamping and/or capturing

[Richard_G]

In my own setup I'm going from the line out of a Motu M4 into a Lehle P-Split III, giving a dBU level of 14,8 dBu when following the simple @MirrorProfiles procedure in the linked video. I'm a bit worried this is too hot for running into pedals and or amps for reamping and/or capturing? But then again; at what level is the actual DI and/or training file ending up at...

Absolutely fine to do that, and honestly, I’d recommend using a level like that (slightly louder than what your guitar outputs) so that the training has examples of the amp being pushed hard. This’ll make it more accurate in more situations (like using different guitars or boosting with a pedal). FWIW, a TC integrated preamp (or peppers dirty tree) adds over 30dB of level. So I wouldn’t worry about hitting an amp 5-10dB higher than a pickup might output.

Much better to train with a loud signal, rather than too weak. The reamp file will have a wide range of dynamics already - the louder you can get it will give the model more information to train from.

Thanks - I really appreciate the advice!

I’ll probably leave the reamping chain as-is when making NAM captures.

But what about Tonex captures? How do you guys reconcile your usual reamp setup with Tonex’s capture guidelines? Do you leave everything as-is, or do you make adjustments to follow their recommendations during the process?

I guess I'm mostly wondering about the return level…

 

[Sascha Franck]

I guess I'm mostly wondering about the return level…

Isn't that only responsible for the final level of the capture?

 

[Richard_G]

And also:

I might be missing something, but I don’t really understand how adjusting the guitar input (Input 2 of my audio interface in my setup) affects the Tonex capturing process. The training signal is sent from a line out of my audio interface, through the reamp box to the device being captured, and then (via DI) into Input 1 of the interface.

I don’t really see how the gain on Input 2 affects anything—aside from the comparison stage during the process. Is that its' only purpose?

 

[Richard_G]

Isn't that only responsible for the final level of the capture?

Perhaps? But why would you change that from your normal reamp chain setup? (Perhaps the signal-to-noise ratio during capturing is an argument?)

 

[Sascha Franck]

(Perhaps the signal-to-noice ratio during capturing is an argument?)

That's what I would imagine.

 

[2dor]

Thanks - I really appreciate the advice!

I’ll probably leave the reamping chain as-is when making NAM captures.

But what about Tonex captures? How do you guys reconcile your usual reamp setup with Tonex’s capture guidelines? Do you leave everything as-is, or do you make adjustments to follow their recommendations during the process?

I guess I'm mostly wondering about the return level…

I leave the chain as I calibrated it for NAM & ignore ToneX guidelines. I got the best results this way.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

I leave the chain as I calibrated it for NAM & ignore ToneX guidelines. I got the best results this way.

This is the way

 

[Chocol8]

I don’t really see how the gain on Input 2 affects anything—aside from the comparison stage during the process. Is that its' only purpose?

Yes, and that’s what they people don’t understand about Tonex. I know a lot of people think calibrated capture levels to arbitrary numbers is an important thing. It isn’t.

If you match YOUR guitar level and the comparison sounds good, it is good.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Yes, and that’s what they people don’t understand about Tonex. I know a lot of people think calibrated capture levels to arbitrary numbers is an important thing. It isn’t.

If you match YOUR guitar level and the comparison sounds good, it is good.

Yeah, this is fine for an individual’s own rig, assuming they don’t intend on sharing it with anyone else.

The problems only arise if you intend on using the same captures on another rig and want them to behave consistently. It’s just easier to be on top of your levels and then you never have to think about it again, rather than constantly guessing and adjusting and never being totally sure.

 

[Chocol8]

The problems only arise if you intend on using the same captures on another rig and want them to behave consistently. It’s just easier to be on top of your levels and then you never have to think about it again, rather than constantly guessing and adjusting and never being totally sure.

That’s no different than if you were using tube amps with different rigs. We survived for close to 100 years without any guitarist fretting over how many dBu their input signal was. We just turned a knob until it sounded right with the new rig.

Now that it’s digital and you can make precise level readings people suddenly think numbers matter. There can be some value from a convenience perspective, but it’s not something that deserves the attention it’s been getting. Trust your ears first and foremost, not a number reading, and you will be just fine.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

That’s no different than if you were using tube amps with different rigs.

It is different to using analog gear, the “new” part that we never had to consider was shoving digital gear in between that changes your levels by different amounts. And if a piece of gear causes some signal level to deviate from unity, then it’s extremely common to want to get it back to unity again.

Being on top of your levels and knowing what’s going on isn’t an alternative to using your ears. Do both, it’s not like any of it is difficult. It just allows you to achieve unity gain without needing to have the original gear next to you to compare (and guess) against.

 

[Chocol8]

It is different to using analog gear, the “new” part that we never had to consider was shoving digital gear in between that changes your levels by different amounts.

If you followed the directions with Tonex and used it as they intended this was never an issue. If you ignored the manual or thought you knew better is was.

And if a piece of gear causes some signal level to deviate from unity, then it’s extremely common to want to get it back to unity again

That's not at all important, it's more of a distraction than anything. When you were playing a tube amp and unplugged a LP and plugged in a Tele, did you ever reach for a clean pre-amp and a meter so you could get back to "unity'? I highly doubt it, and if you did, you were an outlier. Levels need to be within a reasonable range, but it is a wide range. Just the range you get from hitting different strings with different picks in different locations with different force is an extremely wide range of output levels. Calibrating within a few dB is not all that meaningful.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

If you followed the directions with Tonex and used it as they intended this was never an issue. If you ignored the manual or thought you knew better is was.

No, that’s not true at all. ToneX’s implementation can only lead to very vague calibration. Doing it with measured voltages is far superior no matter which way you look at it. Using your guitar and interface to try and calibrate works in a pinch but is pretty poor as far as making it consistent user to user. That’s why it’s such a mess to begin with - especially when you consider some IK branded gear can only output a feeble -6dBu on its reamp output. Tonocracy and NAM have both implemented far superior solutions that really don’t ask very much of the user.

When you were playing a tube amp and unplugged a LP and plugged in a Tele, did you ever reach for a clean pre-amp and a meter so you could get back to "unity'?

This is totally misunderstanding the issue. You can’t equate calibrating a reamp and DI input to plugging directly into an amp.

The thing you are trying to remove is the A/D and D/A so what you end up with is the same as plugging directly into the amp. Once you are calibrated, it’s as close as you can get to plugging directly in. Once I’m calibrated, it’s just as though i’m using the real gear - that’s precisely why I want that.

Just the range you get from hitting different strings with different picks in different locations with different force is an extremely wide range of output levels. Calibrating within a few dB is not all that meaningful.

Again, missing the point. You’re talking about aligning guitar levels. Calibration is about removing the variable of the A/D and PRESERVING the relative differences of the guitars. Confusing the two is something else that just leads to more mess rather than a more slick experience.


Do Fractal/Helix/Kemper/QC users complain about levels? Or do they actually prefer the fact they can just plug straight in and it’s 1:1 with using the real amp. It’s perfectly achievable with ToneX too, but not with the methods IK encourages users to use. It’s flawed and sets a low bar.

 

[Chocol8]

and PRESERVING the

This is why you don't get it.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

This is why you don't get it.

Literally no idea what point you’re trying to make here.

 

[Chocol8]

Literally no idea what point you’re trying to make here.

I am well aware and I don’t think I can change that.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

I am well aware and I don’t think I can change that.

The thing is, there’s no disputing the accuracy or which method works better. All you can really dispute is whether it matters or not.

IMO there are very few instances where earballing is sufficient. And having calibrated levels never takes anything away, all it does is improve the overall experience.

Contributing what is essentially “use your ears bro” in a thread that is literally titled about what dBu level to hit your amp with is just wasting everyone’s time.

 

[Chocol8]

there’s no disputing the accuracy or which method works better.

If you believe everything is a nail, you believe there’s no disputing that a hammer is the best tool and works better than a screwdriver. You are approaching Tonex from a Kemper perspective and until you figure out why that is wrong, you will always believe calibration is important.

 

[Sascha Franck]

If you believe everything is a nail, you believe there’s no disputing that a hammer is the best tool and works better than a screwdriver. You are approaching Tonex from a Kemper perspective and until you figure out why that is wrong, you will always believe calibration is important.

Seriously, while I don't care too much about accuracy myself (only for those things that I'd just capture for my personal needs, where I would always be able to do direct A/B comparisons, hence being able to do finetunings after the fact), @MirrorProfiles is spot on here.
Calibration the way he's doing it is a requirement when you want predictable results on any devices (regardless whether it's hard- or software), especially important for folks running all kinda different interfaces featuring completely different input amplification.
As said, I don't care about that myself (I might perhaps start doing so one day, but it's kinda unlikely), but that doesn't mean I wouldn't fully understand the point he's making.

 

[2dor]

If you followed the directions with Tonex and used it as they intended this was never an issue. If you ignored the manual or thought you knew better is was.

My experience with ToneX is the exact opposite. If you follow the wizard guidelines you risk of always being undergained & what happens is people try to compensate from their converters so they introduce clipping etc.