Kemper Profiler MK 2

[dws2384]

I’m not defending them, I just don’t think it’s a huge conspiracy like some of you lot clearly do .

It’s not a conspiracy, it’s a simple question that’s been asked many times and been ignored.

If the same DSP is used in MK2 and MK1 why can’t MK1 play the same profiles at the new quality?

The fact that simple question can’t be answered in a sentence, or won’t even be acknowledged is pretty dumb.

 

[Orvillain]

It’s not a conspiracy, it’s a simple question that’s been asked many times and been ignored.

If the same DSP is used in MK2 and MK1 why can’t MK1 play the same profiles at the new quality?

The fact that simple question can’t be answered in a sentence, or won’t even be acknowledged is pretty dumb.

It is a completely reasonable question, given the hardware breakdowns that have been documented.

 

[nightlight]

The thing you really should understand is, "Kemper did it first" is only true for the core philosophy - make a "clone" of a real amplifier.

Kemper do not do machine learning. They do not use neural networks. They do not use any kind of data-driven training process where a model learns the behaviour of the circuit from a dataset.

What Kemper actually does is a system identification process using test signals. It probes the amp with a series of stimuli and derives a DSP model that approximates the nonlinear response. It’s clever engineering, but it’s fundamentally a deterministic algorithm.

Modern systems like NeuralDSP QC captures, ToneX, NAM, etc. are doing something quite different. They train neural networks on large datasets of input/output pairs and let the model learn the transfer function. NeuralDSP even use their own robot (TINA) to help create the datasets; capturing training data from a reference amp, with the knobs at a range of values, and using that to create a parametric model rather than a single snapshot model. That's how they create their amp models.

So yes, Kemper absolutely popularised the idea of cloning an amp. But the underlying technology used by later systems is not just an iteration of Kemper’s method. In many cases it’s an entirely different class of modelling technique.

The Quad Cortex and ToneX and the rest also do that signal thing. That's the way the system determines the characteristics of the amplifier you're cloning.

As far as "being the first", you could use that analogy for all kinds of tech. It's essentially an idea that launched "a thousand ships". Granted that the later tech improved on the original idea. But credit is due when credit is due, I don't think you could water down the history of how we've got to this juncture.

I really don’t understand why people want to defend Kemper? There are legitimate questions they could easily answer but instead they just ignore the questions, delete posts, and pretend its not happening.

“Oh it’s just a guitar modeller who cares” I do, this whole gaslighting BS is becoming so normalized throughout all kinds of industries/business because people just brush it aside with that attitude. In most instances there’s no way to actually call the company out, here, there is.

I've seen similar sentiments on the Kemper forum back in the day when the Axe FXIII was launched and superseded the Axe FX XL+. Everyone was saying, "Oh look, Fractal has launched a new modeller, they don't stand by their products."

Now that it's happening with the Kemper, everyone is losing their minds and saying, "How could you do this to us, Mr CK?" Even though it is now a product that is over a decade old and has been well-supported during that entire time.

 

[dws2384]

I've seen similar sentiments on the Kemper forum back in the day when the Axe FXIII was launched and superseded the Axe FX XL+. Everyone was saying, "Oh look, Fractal has launched a new modeller, they don't stand by their products."

Now that it's happening with the Kemper, everyone is losing their minds and saying, "How could you do this to us, Mr CK?" Even though it is now a product that is over a decade old and has been well-supported during that entire time

Your argument would be valid if Fractal released the Axe 3 and it was the exact same DSP hardware as Axe 2, but that’s not what happened so it’s a pretty dumb comparison.

FWIW I think Axe 3 was 2-3 times more powerful than Axe 2 as far as DSP goes…so you know, an actual upgrade.

 

[nightlight]

Your argument would be valid if Fractal released the Axe 3 and it was the exact same DSP hardware as Axe 2, but that’s not what happened so it’s a pretty dumb comparison.

FWIW I think Axe 3 was 2-3 times more powerful than Axe 2 as far as DSP goes…so you know, an actual upgrade.

Actually, no, it isn't. What part did you not understand? Old users are complaining that the Kemper V1 should do exactly the same thing the V2 does. Which is what they also said about the Axe FXII and Axe FXIII, i.e. the old users are getting shortchanged, why can't we also get taken along for the ride after paying once for a product.

There were also posts on many forums by people who bought the Axe FXII shortly before the Axe FXIII and complained about it. Were you not around then?

For the Kemper, there are definitely some new components in there, including an application processor, which could have a significant impact on enhancing/managing the processing power of the DSP.

I don't believe in hearsay by people that haven't built a device like a Kemper and say that there are "experts" who will figure out how to crack it so that V1 will be able to run V2 profiles.

That's just dumb. They couldn't do it with the looper either, btw.

 

[BenIfin]

The fact that simple question can’t be answered in a sentence, or won’t even be acknowledged is pretty dumb.

Personally, I agree ..... but as others [ie:- Businesses] might say, its called "the music business" for a reason

 

[Orvillain]

The Quad Cortex and ToneX and the rest also do that signal thing. That's the way the system determines the characteristics of the amplifier you're cloning.

As far as "being the first", you could use that analogy for all kinds of tech. It's essentially an idea that launched "a thousand ships". Granted that the later tech improved on the original idea. But credit is due when credit is due, I don't think you could water down the history of how we've got to this juncture.

Forget the signals. The signals have nothing to do with it. ToneX performs actual neural network training. The Quad Cortex and Kemper do not.

 

[Orvillain]

Actually, no, it isn't. What part did you not understand? Old users are complaining that the Kemper V1 should do exactly the same thing the V2 does. Which is what they also said about the Axe FXII and Axe FXIII, i.e. the old users are getting shortchanged, why can't we also get taken along for the ride after paying once for a product.

I've literally never seen a Fractal user expect their Axe2 to do what the Axe3 does.

 

[Orvillain]

For the Kemper, there are definitely some new components in there, including an application processor, which could have a significant impact on enhancing/managing the processing power of the DSP.

As I understand it, the application processor is not powerful nor fast enough for DSP processing. It is probably a faciltator for non-DSP data transfer.

 

[crispsandwich]

It is a completely reasonable question, given the hardware breakdowns that have been documented.

Actually it's not a reasonable question, IMO. Companies do not have to tell potential customers all their secrets. It might appear that the processors are the same - maybe they are. But there is obviously more to it, and Kemper aren't obligated to give out information to people foaming at the mouth from behind a screen - people who are just waiting to jump on them.

I just don't see why they would give Player users the full rez playback and exclude mk1 users. Unless, of course, there are actual hardware differences because the Player is a newer unit. Seems pretty cut and dry, to me.

 

[Orvillain]

Actually it's not a reasonable question, IMO. Companies do not have to tell potential customers all their secrets. It might appear that the processors are the same - maybe they are. But there is obviously more to it, and Kemper aren't obligated to give out information to people foaming at the mouth from behind a screen - people who are just waiting to jump on them.

I just don't see why they would give Player users the full rez playback and exclude mk1 users. Unless, of course, there are actual hardware differences because the Player is a newer unit. Seems pretty cut and dry, to me.

Okay.... so you go into a shop.. you buy a product... a few years later... you go into the same shop... you buy the MK2 of that product.....

.... then you come to find that other than it now being a dark shade of green instead of white, 99% of what is inside the product is exactly the same as the MK1....


..... people are completely within their rights - both in terms of morals and ethics, but also consumer law - to at LEAST ask the question about what they're actually paying for.

It simply IS a reasonable question - no ifs and no buts. I never said Kemper have to tell potential customers all their secrets. That's a poor reading on your part.

 

[crispsandwich]

Okay.... so you go into a shop.. you buy a product... a few years later... you go into the same shop... you buy the MK2 of that product.....

.... then you come to find that other than it now being a dark shade of green instead of white, 99% of what is inside the product is exactly the same as the MK1....


..... people are completely within their rights - both in terms of morals and ethics, but also consumer law - to at LEAST ask the question about what they're actually paying for.

It simply IS a reasonable question - no ifs and no buts. I never said Kemper have to tell potential customers all their secrets. That's a poor reading on your part.

I disagree, but you are entitled to your opinion. I guess time will tell which of us is right (if either of us are).

Kemper don't really have to confirm or deny anything. People can ask whatever questions they like, but I don't personally think these accusatory questions are reasonable. Even if they came out and said there are differences, would you guys believe them? There would be no point to doing it on Kemper's part. I can't deny that their communication has been quite bad and their forum moderation behaviour is odd. But some of you lot seem to think this is a huge conspiracy. We're all being kept in the dark by Big Modeller, headed by C. Kemper .

 

[Orvillain]

I disagree, but you are entitled to your opinion. I guess time will tell which of us is right (if either of us are).

Kemper don't really have to confirm or deny anything. People can ask whatever questions they like, but I don't personally think these accusatory questions are reasonable. Even if they came out and said there are differences, would you guys believe them? There would be no point to doing it on Kemper's part. I can't deny that their communication has been quite bad and their forum moderation behaviour is odd. But some of you lot seem to think this is a huge conspiracy. We're all being kept in the dark by Big Modeller, headed by C. Kemper .

Why do you keep bringing it back to what Kemper have to do?? I haven't said a single thing about what Kemper should do. Nor have I implied anything conspiratorial, nor said anything accusatory. You're being very weird.

It is simply a fact, that as a consumer, you have a right - and I would say an obligation - to ask questions about the things you've purchased, or are considering purchasing. Perhaps if more people did that instead of relying on influencers and reputation, there would be much less stuff clogging up landfills all over the world.

 

[Deadpan]

The firmware update for the MK2 was at least half the time vs the MK1.

 

[crispsandwich]

Why do you keep bringing it back to what Kemper have to do?? I haven't said a single thing about what Kemper should do. Nor have I implied anything conspiratorial, nor said anything accusatory. You're being very weird.

It is simply a fact, that as a consumer, you have a right - and I would say an obligation - to ask questions about the things you've purchased, or are considering purchasing. Perhaps if more people did that instead of relying on influencers and reputation, there would be much less stuff clogging up landfills all over the world.

I don’t really understand why you can’t accept that I am entitled to have an opinion that’s different to yours. If you want to keep arguing about it, maybe we can do it over PM because I am one of those people who moans when others derail threads with petty arguments. Don’t want to be a hypocrite as well as an apparent Kemper fan-girl

 

[Orvillain]

I don’t really understand why you can’t accept that I am entitled to have an opinion that’s different to yours. If you want to keep arguing about it, maybe we can do it over PM because I am one of those people who moans when others derail threads with petty arguments. Don’t want to be a hypocrite as well as an apparent Kemper fan-girl

Where did I say you're not entitled to your opinion?

You're a very weird person.

 

[[Nathan]]

If I bought a pair of Sonos speakers and 10 years later they sold the mk2 with a different colour... I think its a fair question to ask whats new and can the old ones do what the new ones are doing.

I dont know the full Kemper situation but they seem to be stepping on rakes with everything they've done since the player came out.

 

[Dom Mcsweeney]

* wet farts *

 

[Gary_W]

I disagree, but you are entitled to your opinion. I guess time will tell which of us is right (if either of us are).

Kemper don't really have to confirm or deny anything. People can ask whatever questions they like, but I don't personally think these accusatory questions are reasonable. Even if they came out and said there are differences, would you guys believe them? There would be no point to doing it on Kemper's part. I can't deny that their communication has been quite bad and their forum moderation behaviour is odd. But some of you lot seem to think this is a huge conspiracy. We're all being kept in the dark by Big Modeller, headed by C. Kemper .

Part of the reason I jumped ship after many (happy) years of Kemper ownership was because I couldn’t bring myself to spend money on ‘almost exactly the same hardware as I’d bought 12-13 years previously’. For sure a company doesn’t have to tell you what’s behind the wizard’s curtain but it mattered to me because
(a) I enjoyed years of supported updates first time round and found it hard to believe I’d get similar longevity if the mk2 was indeed based on such old tech
(b) it just felt wrong to spend well over a grand on something that (hardware wise) I already seemed to have

I asked many times ‘what’s different’ and no-one could tell me.

I’ve had no regrets with the Stadium so far - I miss a couple of the reverbs on the Kemper but otherwise it’s been a positive move for me where I have confidence it will continue to grow into something even better. If Kemper cared to persuade me why I should stay, I may have stayed put but they had no interest in doing that. I am just a keen amateur - this is my hobby, not my profession, so ‘why should they care’? Well, as a business, my money is worth the same as anyone else’s and, when there’s so much competition out there now, taking the time to listen to the needs of loyal users who might give you money again makes sense.

 

[LP59]

It’s not a conspiracy, it’s a simple question that’s been asked many times and been ignored.

If the same DSP is used in MK2 and MK1 why can’t MK1 play the same profiles at the new quality?

The fact that simple question can’t be answered in a sentence, or won’t even be acknowledged is pretty dumb.

FYI, Kemper did answer it, and we'll probably see that answer repeated again in the next few days. They said there are "technical reasons" why V2 profiling won't run on a Mk1.

That doesn't really explain anything, but that's the closest to an answer that anybody is likely to get.