Kemper Profiler MK 2

[Eagle]

Agreed, for which good headphones are quite capable for, in my experience.

But maybe I'm misunderstanding something about how Eagle tested this. Willing to do what he does and see again.

I doubt results will be any different to what I've seen already.

I've used the fm3 to match real amps for quite a while now. It takes some tweaking and amp sim searching but usually I call the results close enough.

Of course, the margin for error becomes wider that way, but still.

You get no proper interplay between guitar and amp with headphones.

 

[Dimiguitar]

You get no proper interplay between guitar and amp with headphones.

Ah, that sure, yes.

 

[Chocol8]

You get no proper interplay between guitar and amp with headphones.

Or anything else when the volume is lower.

 

[hunter]

I spent some time today with Kemper mkII, tonex and fractal and matched all of them to a Marshall crunch tone. Monitored through headphones, same IR. For me, tonex was the closest for feel, fractal second (after finding the closest amp sim and tweaking basic settings, impedance) and Kemper third, for all the reasons I've come to expect.

It's just my experience though. I understand yours is different.

"matched them to Marshall crunch tone" means you profiled that amp with Kemper and Tonex and Fractal or you took some profile and dialed it close? Because the latter wouldn't mean anything. There are a gazillion shitty Marshall Profiles/Tone Models on Kemper or Tonex, but also some amazing ones. I know which ones I like, and my favourites on Tonex are from XOG and Keemosawbe, love the EVH bundle too. On Kemper it's Mattfig mainly, Bertmeulendijk, Lenz, ... but even from those makers, even within one pack, there are some I like, some I don't.
I mean testing some Marshall profile on Kemper, some other Marshall tone model on Tonex, a Marshall model on Fractal, doesn't mean anything. Other guy, other profiles, dialed in differently = different result.

 

[Dimiguitar]

"matched them to Marshall crunch tone" means you profiled that amp with Kemper and Tonex and Fractal or you took some profile and dialed it close? Because the latter wouldn't mean anything. There are a gazillion shitty Marshall Profiles/Tone Models on Kemper or Tonex, but also some amazing ones. I know which ones I like, and my favourites on Tonex are from XOG and Keemosawbe, love the EVH bundle too. On Kemper it's Mattfig mainly, Bertmeulendijk, Lenz, ... but even from those makers, even within one pack, there are some I like, some I don't.
I mean testing some Marshall profile on Kemper, some other Marshall tone model on Tonex, a Marshall model on Fractal, doesn't mean anything. Other guy, other profiles, dialed in differently = different result.

Profiled/captured, of course, with Kemper and tonex. With fractal, found a similar amp sim and tweaked it to match the amp.

 

[Eagle]

Or anything else when the volume is lower.

To an extent but there is no way headphones is a way to test any amp. I was also talking primarily about playing experience or the complete lack of it in most digital amps . If you play regularly through a WDW with no DAC in the dry signal you would not even question the superiority of the player interaction and immediacy of this . The Kemper gets closer than the others to this player interaction. One big problem is "FRFR" and shitty class D amplifiers that don’t interact like a guitar amp regardless of how it sounds. Or project the sound the same way. I’ve gone back to a tube power amp for Axe and it helps enormously but then I may as well use my X88ir as well. I have tried pretty much everything in common use as "FRFR" and they don’t have the same character as any cab. I am now using F12X200 in custom cabs when I use IRs but guitar cabs are still better.
Remember I don’t play live anymore and am just taking about my personal experience.
It’s like when you start a thread about Dumble amps and only the guys that have played a real one ( no clones) get it . Imagine someone idiot testing an OD 100 with headphones.
If I only played digital and only at home at low ish volume I would use high end studio monitors.

 

[Dimiguitar]

The Kemper gets closer than the others to this player interaction.

I made some tests today with tonex, Kemper, fractal and real amp. Direct captures of the full amp first.

(Not studio profiles with Kemper cab removed like the Andertons video you commented on from the null test thread. Is that how you made tests btw or with direct profiles?)

The digital units I amplified with the same solid state amp into the 2x12 cab, then amplified with custom tube power amp. Real amp (preamp and power amp) through the same cab.

After that, I made preamp profiles only and used the Marshall power amp. Circled between the captures, the fractal amp sim, and the Marshall preamp.

I'm not seeing what you're describing vs the amp, that Kemper has some "real amp" mojo the others lack. It's just a somewhat different sound/feel. But closer to the amp? At least in this test, with my own profiles, not really.

Of course this through my own perception, ears, hands. But yes, that's my experience.

 

[Eagle]

I made some tests today with tonex, Kemper, fractal and real amp. Direct captures of the full amp first.

(Not studio profiles with Kemper cab removed like the Andertons video you commented on from the null test thread. Is that how you made tests btw or with direct profiles?)

The digital units I amplified with the same solid state amp into the 2x12 cab, then amplified with custom tube power amp. Real amp (preamp and power amp) through the same cab.

After that, I made preamp profiles only and used the Marshall power amp. Circled between the captures, the fractal amp sim, and the Marshall preamp.

I'm not seeing what you're describing vs the amp, that Kemper has some "real amp" mojo the others lack. It's just a somewhat different sound/feel. But closer to the amp? At least in this test, with my own profiles, not really.

Of course this through my own perception, ears, hands. But yes, that's my experience.

It’s that “ real amp” bit in the feel that is better with certain types of models that I’m talking about. It’s noticeable and preferable.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Oh, we have entered the realm of "amplifier in the room". How exciting. I've never read about that before. Please elaborate.

 

[Antipodes]

Oh, we have entered the realm of "amplifier in the room". How exciting. I've never read about that before. Please elaborate.

As best I can tell, it's when you are seeing your shrink (everyone on this forum will need one eventually) and you are regaling them at length with all your modelling travails, they will eventually cut in and ask you "Is the amplifier in the room with us now?"

 

[Eagle]

Amp in the room is a combination of factors that only a complete idiot would deny existing.
ATM no modelling or profiling device is capable of.
I am only talking about the experience of a player sat in front of a real amp plugged directly in. All tube 100% analog no fx. This is where you hear everything in the amp in its purest detail. This is where Kemper has an edge over other digital but only in certain types of tones primarily clean to break up. Then your "FRFR" has a huge impact and it all goes to hell.
I am not looking for your typical modelling "FRFR" experience of a Boss HM2 plugged in to the back of your dad’s stereo or Headrush as they call it.

 

[Sascha Franck]

As best I can tell, it's when you are seeing your shrink (everyone on this forum will need one eventually) and you are regaling them at length with all your modelling travails, they will eventually cut in and ask you "Is the amplifier in the room with us now?"

I guess I don't understand even half of that sentence (language barrier in full effect).

Edit: Deepled, understanding now. No "modeling travails" anymore on my side. It just works.

 

[Dimiguitar]

I am only talking about the experience of a player sat in front of a real amp plugged directly in. All tube 100% analog no fx. This is where you hear everything in the amp in its purest detail. This is where Kemper has an edge over other digital but only in certain types of tones primarily clean to break up.

This assumes these Kemper profiles are more accurate, perhaps in some specific way, to the amp/source, right, for this mojo to be there with such tones.

But then why do you think I'm not seeing that when comparing against tonex and other units, testing like I described above? Wth crunch tone, using the guitar's volume pot, etc.

Is it a personal inability to perceive the Kemper mojo? Hands and ears can't do it? Or something else wrong with methodology?

Because tonex feels closer to the source, to me, just like with headphones. And I believe NAM could do even better if set up the right way. My perception seems to be pretty much in line with what one could imagine seeing NULL tests in other contexts.

 

[Dimiguitar]

Oh, we have entered the realm of "amplifier in the room". How exciting. I've never read about that before. Please elaborate.

At least there's some relevance to Kemper compared to other topic lel.

 

[Sascha Franck]

This assumes these Kemper profiles are more accurate, perhaps in some specific way, to the amp/source, right, for this mojo to be there with such tones.

No, they're obviously not more accurate. You may still prefer them, even over the source.
Just as IR-ed sounds over a fullrange system aren't an accurate representation of a guitar cab - I still prefer them over the real deal.

 

[Dimiguitar]

No, they're obviously not more accurate. You may still prefer them, even over the source.
Just as IR-ed sounds over a fullrange system aren't an accurate representation of a guitar cab - I still prefer them over the real deal.

I agree that they're not more accurate, and that you may prefer them over source. But considering the kind of claim Eagle makes, it seems to me that accuracy is Paramount. Otherwise, where does this "real amp" Kemper mojo come from?

 

[ian_dissonance]

I agree that they're not more accurate, and that you may prefer them over source. But considering the kind of claim Eagle makes, it seems to me that accuracy is Paramount. Otherwise, where does this "real amp" Kemper mojo come from?

He doesn’t know, all of it is amorphous “you gotta just like feel it man” nonsense that doesn’t mean anything to anyone besides the person saying it. That why in the middle of a modeling/profiling discussion things like “oh well I just plug in to my amp if I want high gain” come up.

I am not looking for your typical modelling ""FRFR"" experience of a Boss HM2 plugged in to the back of your dad’s stereo or Headrush as they call it.

If this is what your "FRFR" experience sounds like personally, I do not believe that any of the tones you dial in are good, lol.

 

[Chocol8]

It’s that “ real amp” bit in the feel that is better with certain types of models that I’m talking about. It’s noticeable and preferable.

I agree with this statement 100%. The problem with what you are saying is a bunch of us have tested the same things, and listening, feel, and even objective measurements all point to the same conclusion.

Kemper is not the closest to the real amps in sound, response, feel, dynamics or whatever words you want to use. It is the furthest. Clean, edge, crunch, higher gain, all the same. Kemper is dead last. It is 15 year old technology so that shouldn’t be a surprise.

 

[Eagle]

He doesn’t know, all of it is amorphous “you gotta just like feel it man” nonsense that doesn’t mean anything to anyone besides the person saying it. That why in the middle of a modeling/profiling discussion things like “oh well I just plug in to my amp if I want high gain” come up.

If this is what your ""FRFR"" experience sounds like personally, I do not believe that any of the tones you dial in are good, lol.

I’m slightly exaggerating.

 

[Eagle]

No, they're obviously not more accurate. You may still prefer them, even over the source.
Just as IR-ed sounds over a fullrange system aren't an accurate representation of a guitar cab - I still prefer them over the real deal.

This and a nicer feel is what matters not a BS nul test which is still not an accurate representation of any analogue device anyway. If you like it and it’s practical for your application accuracy isn’t really an issue . Also the feel can be more like an actual amp in responsiveness even if the profile doesn’t sound as accurate as an Axe3.
If you want the most accurate sound and player experience of an amp in front of you you’re not going to get it anyway.