Kemper Profiler MK 2

[MirrorProfiles]

You even had to buy some models for the POD HD series, IIRC.

And things like Helix Native are kind of like an optional "add on" too. A very good value one, and a more sensible way to do it but it's basically PCOM in reverse.

 

[laxu]

They literally had YEARS to do it, though. And they chose not to.

Did they have much incentive to do so though? They were the only game in town for captures for a very long time.

Quad Cortex came out in 2021, but I don't think even that was a major competitor due to its cost and work-in-progress nature. It was the 2023 Tonex that changed the game when suddenly capture tech was compact and cheap, then became bottom of the barrel cheap with the Tonex One a year later.

The time to start rewriting was after the Kemper Stage release in 2019, and Kemper just didn't have the resources or didn't think forward enough. It's starting to look a lot like a Nokia or Blackberry situation where the companies just didn't adapt to newcomers.

 

[Karl Houseknecht]

Did they have much incentive to do so though? They were the only game in town for captures for a very long time.

NDSP announcing the QC like 5 years ago should have lit a gigantic fire under them. It didn't. Tonex also should have. It didn't. NAM should have. It didn't. Now a highly successful modeling company is entering the profile/capture game. Even the mere hint of that being a possibility should have lit a fire under them. It didn't.

If Line6's Proxy ends up even being as good, and these days ALL the alternatives are AT LEAST as good if not better, then it's game over for Kemper. Who wouldn't choose a mature modeling and effects platform that also included capture options over an aged platform like theirs?

 

[Chocol8]

They should have seen competition coming well before Tonex launched. Smart companies keep moving forward so that the competitors trying to catch up just stay further and further behind. Look at how long Line 6 has been thinking about Stadium.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Did they have much incentive to do so though? They were the only game in town for captures for a very long time.

Writing was on the wall for them when Overloud and STL started doing their plugins converting Kemper Profiles into their plugins and eating their lunch. NAM and ToneX were pretty inevitable too and they just kind of watched it happen. We've seen a ton of other proprietary ones since and it moves REALLY quick.

 

[Richard_G]

People have mentioned aliasing a few times.
As a stupid guitar player that just plugs into the amp and play, what is aliasing in this context?

You may find videos like this educational:



Edit: Start at 7:50 if you're in a hurry, but I think the whole video is worth watching.

 

[KingsXJJ]

People have mentioned aliasing a few times.
As a stupid guitar player that just plugs into the amp and play, what is aliasing in this context?

Not bueno. Short story the way I understand it is artifacts introduced in to the signal.

 

[quadgear]

I don’t find the Tiers/locking features behind a paywall to be a benefit to the customer

Would you be ok if the list price for the Player was about $1000 and no option for a cheaper Level I Player?

Sure it would better to have a $700 Level III Player, but that's not part of the question and not likely.

 

[DrewJD82]

Yeah well, but that's not what my reply was about.

I mean, you were saying this:


And then this:



But they actually did that. The Tier thing with the Player was a first, before all updates were free. And IMO there's been quite some substantial ones. Possibly not as great as with other companies, but without any doubt, the thing got free updates for over a decade.

Yeah well, that’s what my reply IS about and why I stated in the post you first replied to-

Kemper/Neural- Don't do that at all. I started going into detail but ended up with a wall of text, you can just read through the pages in this thread to see the gripe about Kemper

“the pages of this thread” being the money for nothin’/MK2 discussion

While it would be unfair to say Kemper hasn’t updated the units at all, I know the only update I’ve seen excitement over was with liquid profiles and that seemed to land with a subtle splash and you don’t hear much about them anymore. My distaste for them currently is entirely based upon the Tiers and the MK2, though, not their updates.

 

[OneEng]

Enshittification is the term you are looking for. For big companies this is the "profits must always go up" capitalism pitfall that eventually leads them to become brands people don't want anymore because the offering has gone way past what people will accept.

Kemper is not there yet, but the whole tiered level thing is hard to swallow when no competitor does this pattern, and the Kemper Player is not cheap enough to start that it feels acceptable. Like we accept e.g streaming services doing enshittification because all of them do it, but when you can buy a full featured Hotone for the price of a Kemper Player, or a Helix LT for the price of Player + one upgrade tier...it just doesn't add up to a good value.

I think that they missed the boat with the Player. Had they given it full functionality at ~ $600 they would have had to open up more factories to build it.

Level III @ 1K is really too much. I suspect the BOM is <$200 fully assembled. They could have made a fortune.

NDSP does it with content, Kemper does it with hardware.

I don’t find the Tiers/locking features behind a paywall to be a benefit to the customer and I’d be willing to bet that if you asked everyone who owns a Kemper to write down a list of everything they’d want to see in the MK2, nothing about the MK2 as it stands now would be on that list. Mainly because they already own everything but the 7 fixed effects that are coming with the MK2. They’re wanting customers to dish out $1400 on the hopes of ‘better’ profiling (since they were cautious to remove any verbiage about it being more accurate or the most accurate), after Kristophe has spent the last 14 years saying he doesn’t want to change it at all.

The only people I’ve seen excited about it are the hardcore Kemper fans that don’t seem to operate in the same reality you or I do. There’s more people who want to wait and see what’s happening with it than buying one right away and that’s definitely not the way things generally work with a new product launch from one of the heavy hitters.

Fair enough.

For me, I never utilize all 8 of the efx blocks I already have so adding 7 fixed effects blocks to that does absolutely 0 for me. Only the promised "better profiles" have any interest..... and I agree that the hypocrisy is thick at Kemper after years of proclaiming the unit is already perfect.

I like the idea of a faster boot for sure, but honestly, Kemper still boots faster than my old tube amps used to warm up ..... and I used those for decades!

I do think it is a little unfair to say Kemper hasn't given anything to its users though. I feel like my Kemper (purchased in 2013) has been given plenty of free updates and has been paid for many times over at countless (well, not countless, but lots of em) gigs. The thing is built like a tank and is very reliable.

 

[Orvillain]

Boot times don't factor into my purchasing decisions one iota, to be frank.

 

[Karl Houseknecht]

I never utilize all 8 of the efx blocks I already have so adding 7 fixed effects blocks to that does absolutely 0 for me.

The Fixed Effects actually piqued my interest for a bit because that was one of my big frustrations. Never enough room for the effects I really wanted in there in addition to "utility" effects like additional gate, post EQ, or more "fixed" types like wah.

Then I saw the video on how the Fixed Effects were implemented and my semi-GAS instantly vanished. They literally are "fixed" in that you can't re-order them, replace them with other blocks, and they are in some cases dumbed down versions of their full blocks. I should have realized that's what "fixed" meant, so my bad.

 

[DrewJD82]

I appreciate the thoughtful response Drew. But let’s be honest, it often goes way beyond “Kemper or NDSP did X.” It’s not a matter of interpretation either. It’s often name calling, calling people stupid or insinuating that they must be deaf among other things. I’m not trying to start an argument or nitpick but it’s those things I don’t like. And it’s those things I was referring to trying to do so without specifics, Honest disagreement on gear or fair criticism of companies doesn’t bother me in the least. I’m not criticizing this place, I love it. I believe things could possibly be a bit kinder. That’s all.

Unfortunately the things I mentioned do happen.

Well, if it’s as “often” as you say it is, feel free to show some proof and I’ll change my tune. Should be as simple as hitting the Quote button and pasting them right in a reply. Or do it in a PM if you don’t want to publicly call anyone out, but I’ll read each one and take it seriously.

I’m sure you’ll find a couple from Orvillian, but I have a hunch there won’t be a lot to report back. And if you find one from Orvillian, do some due diligence and follow the conversation that lead up to it.

And people can like it or not, but it’s absolutely realistic that there are people who can hear things other people can’t, due to a lack of experience. It’s not a negative human trait people have to correct, it’s no different than me not being able to recognize that not hacking off the low end under 30hz in my mixes was jacking up the entire mix. I just wasn’t experienced enough to hear it yet. I have a hunch the same thing is going on here with that discussion, because while Orvie might be a cunty one, he’s got legitimate experience and backs up his claims with proof.

 

[molul]

I get these paid upgrades are their take on having different products tiers. And it's kind of clever, as they don't need to make different devices, unlike Line6 with the Helix, for instance. And the customer has the same device all the time.

But on the other hand, you're paying for just a software upgrade. If I'm paying more, I also like having more "other stuff" (switches, DSP, bigger screen, ins/outs, expression pedal...).

But the easy answer is: Kemper's business model is not for me. One of the things I love the most from Helix is the free updates, and I really hope they never change that.

I'm just getting tired of every company, big or small, continuously trying to figure out how to get a bit more for something you used to have for free or just wasn't charged: plastic bags, choosing seat on a bus, concert tickets "service fees", being able to exit and get back in in a music festival...

For instance, last week I wanted to buy a shampoo online (the store is 5 minutes from home, but I usually have to order online and choose "store pickup" for delivery, because their stock is very small), which had been always free, and now they charged 1€ for "package preparation expenses". I told them to &@#&?! themselves

 

[KingsXJJ]

Quick boot times are awesome for some folks though. The waiting on tube amps analogy is a tired one.

That’s a bit like saying “I used to wait on mail for a week and it never bothered me! Getting an email quicker is no big deal.”
Sure that’s hyperbole but all the kids are doing it.

A long boot time when you’re waiting on it is not fun. If you’re not waiting on it, it’s no big deal.

 

[Richard_G]

Quick boot times are nice. I prefer quick to slow. I get it. It will still be so far down the list of what I'd care about when comparing possible gear purchases that I'm close to putting it in the "irrelevant" column.

 

[Mongillo19]

Quick boot times are awesome for some folks though. The waiting on tube amps analogy is a tired one.

That’s a bit like saying “I used to wait on mail for a week and it never bothered me! Getting an email quicker is no big deal.”
Sure that’s hyperbole but all the kids are doing it.

A long boot time when you’re waiting on it is not fun. If you’re not waiting on it, it’s no big deal.

I mean, it's what, 10 seconds of your life

I don't know in what world is that worth advertising. But hey I guess it's a neat addon?

 

[KingsXJJ]

Well, if it’s as “often” as you say it is, feel free to show some proof and I’ll change my tune. Should be as simple as hitting the Quote button and pasting them right in a reply. Or do it in a PM if you don’t want to publicly call anyone out, but I’ll read each one and take it seriously.

I’m sure you’ll find a couple from Orvillian, but I have a hunch there won’t be a lot to report back. And if you find one from Orvillian, do some due diligence and follow the conversation that lead up to it.

And people can like it or not, but it’s absolutely realistic that there are people who can hear things other people can’t, due to a lack of experience. It’s not a negative human trait people have to correct, it’s no different than me not being able to recognize that not hacking off the low end under 30hz in my mixes was jacking up the entire mix. I just wasn’t experienced enough to hear it yet. I have a hunch the same thing is going on here with that discussion, because while Orvie might be a cunty one, he’s got legitimate experience and backs up his claims with proof.

Thanks again. I’ve no desire to trudge through old messages nor hold a grudge. Nor say “see look, I told you so.” I think just raising the point was enough to get the attention of folks who care about kindness. Those that don’t aren’t listening anyway. I feel better having stated openly how I feel about it and “sticking to my guns” on my personal opinions about that and other things.

And in case anyone might be wondering, I don’t have any trouble with joking around, making funny remarks or poking each other in the ribs. Like when you call @Orvillain a cunt. Well, especially when you call @Orvillain a cunt! But see? That is clearly a joke even if there might be more to it too. But that, in my mind, is quite different than him writing out an opinion based on his preferences and observations laced with science and facts to contribute (or maybe even to fight). And for me to respond with Orvillian you are just a stupid cunt. At least I see a difference anyway. And hey, I’m not trying to single him out or get in a jab. Just using the example you provided.

Am I “cheeky sometimes? You bet. I can be a smartass with the best of them. Sometimes it’s fun even if it irritates others. But to me, that’s a different matter from some of the more personal stuff. Any how, enough said I think? All good here. - J

 

[Sascha Franck]

While it would be unfair to say Kemper hasn’t updated the units at all, I know the only update I’ve seen excitement over was with liquid profiles and that seemed to land with a subtle splash and you don’t hear much about them anymore.

I think there's been some pretty notable other updates, too, offering very well received delays, reverbs, drives and IIRC pitch shifting stuff. They seem to have improved live-playing oriented stuff sometimes as well. Oh, and that audio interface - which I actually still find kinda embarrassing, as they've hidden it for so long.

And as far as "don't hear much about them anymore" goes, I think people are just playing the damn thing. If any of the current top modelers, I have possibly seen more Kempers on stages than all others combined over here. Maybe that's different in other parts of the globe, but that's what it is like here.
There's not much fuss about them in guitar oriented media outlets, though. But maybe they never really needed it.

All that obviously doesn't excuse the lame paid content thing or makes anyone go all *wow* regarding the underwhelming pseudo-launch of their MK2 units.

 

[KingsXJJ]

I never said I’d choose gear over boot times. I don’t think I’d have Fractal if I felt that way.

But don’t let me never having said it from stopping anyone from making that leap! LOL