Kemper Profiler MK 2

[Orvillain]

Opinions are fine, I love those, but, they aren't how to measure a company's claim that "the most precise amp recreation ever achieved."

They are if your aim is to avoid the topic altogether, in favour of selling profile packs.

 

[Funk Soul Brother]

WE ONLY SUPPORT DATA THAT ALIGNS WITH OUR VIEWS BUSINESS MODEL

FIFY

 

[Orvillain]

It's gonna be hilarious when Kemper release this new firmware with the improved profiling, and they fix the aliasing issues and all of a sudden people don't like the sound of it.

 

[norminal]

It's gonna be hilarious when Kemper release this new firmware with the improved profiling, and they fix the aliasing issues and all of a sudden people don't like the sound of it.

Even if it wipes the floor with the usual suspects (TONEX, Neural DSP, NAM, etc.) plenty of people will find something to bitch about.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Elucidate.

There's no need if you really happen to think that coming up with a generalisation auch as "any Mooer pedal" being as good as the Kemper is a good idea.

Turn up the definition knob too far. Instant cocked-wah sound. Yes. Every profile can sound like a cocked wah.

That's just not the same by any means. I can make each and every modeler/profiler sound like a cocked wah.

 

[Dom Mcsweeney]

 

[Funk Soul Brother]

"It doesn't matter."
"The audience will never know."
“No one can tell in a mix anyway.”
“If it sounds good, it is good.”
“Nobody cares but guitar players.”
“It’s 95% there—good enough.”
“You’re just being too picky.”
“You’re supposed to tweak it after profiling.”
“It’s not meant to be exact, just close.”
“That amp had bad tubes or a weird mic position anyway.”
“Try profiling it again—maybe something went wrong.”
“It’s close enough for live shows.”
“Why lug around 80 lbs of gear for a 5% difference?”
“I sold all my amps and don’t miss them.”
“You can’t beat the convenience.”
“Tone is in the fingers.”
“Music is about emotion, not fidelity.”
“Chasing tone is a waste of time.”
“You're just romanticizing analog gear.”
“I A/B’d them and couldn’t tell the difference.”
“You’re imagining the difference.”
“Placebo effect—Kemper wins blind tests.”
“You must not know how to dial it in.”

Forgot one...

 

[MixMinisterMike]

Pretty sure the cocked wah was discovered to be a result of the noise gate, not the underlying profile.

 

[Jarick]

Even if it wipes the floor with the usual suspects (TONEX, Neural DSP, NAM, etc.) plenty of people will find something to bitch about.

Pretty much. People are bitching about the new hardware not being fancy enough and others are bitching about it making their 2010 hardware outdated. People are bitching about the accuracy of profiling that nobody has heard yet.

I’ll continue to bitch about the paywalls did the Player. And that the new fixed effects are kind of underwhelming.

 

[GTR37]

Pretty sure the cocked wah was discovered to be a result of the noise gate, not the underlying profile.

A cocked wah is generally a boost in a certain mid freq
Although not desirable in all forms of music it is a fairly popular sound
Michael Schenker , Slash
Gary Moore , a lot of the 80s
Guys , Pantera Dimebag with a furman eq
A lot of pickups Dimarzio , BKP accentuate it

 

[Deadpan]

When it comes to the marketing claim:
"the most precise amp recreation ever achieved."

Then yes, measurements - null tests and others - are the whole story.

Unless it is a perfect null the measurement is meaningless IMO.

And even if it is perfect there's more in details that are not told.

Chatgpt cheat

Null tests can be a powerful tool for measuring how closely a guitar amp modeler replicates a reference signal (often a real amp or another digital model). However, while null tests are very sensitive to differences between signals, they do not account for several critical variables—especially in the context of guitar amp modeling. Here’s what they miss:


---

1. Perceptual and Psychoacoustic Factors

Human hearing is nonlinear and context-dependent.

Null tests may detect tiny differences that are inaudible or irrelevant in real-world use.

Conversely, perceptually important differences (like dynamic feel or stereo image) might not show up strongly in a null test.



---

2. Dynamic Response / Touch Sensitivity

How the amp responds to input dynamics (picking strength, volume knob, etc.) is crucial for feel.

Null tests are typically done with static signals (e.g., reamped DI tracks), not varying player input in real time.

This ignores player interaction, which is central to the "feel" of a tube amp.



---

3. Nonlinear Behavior Under Stress

Real amps behave differently at high gain or volume, often producing complex harmonic content.

Null tests on simple signals might not push the model hard enough to expose nonlinear artifacts or weaknesses.



---

4. Cab and Mic Emulation Differences

Amp modelers often include cabinet, mic, and room simulations.

If these aren’t matched exactly between the reference and modeler, the null test results will be skewed.



---

5. Latency and Phase Differences

Even slight latency or phase shifts can prevent perfect cancellation in a null test, even if the tonal match is perceptually close.

Some amp modelers introduce small delays due to internal processing that cause null tests to show discrepancies.



---

6. Output Impedance / Interaction with Load

Real amps interact with speaker loads in complex ways (especially tube amps).

Null tests using DI signals don’t account for impedance-dependent behavior or reactive load interaction.



---

7. Time-Variant Effects

Real tube amps can have drift, sag, or hysteresis effects that evolve over time.

Modelers may or may not reproduce this—and null tests on short segments may miss it.



---

8. Tone Stack Behavior

The response of the EQ (bass, mid, treble) controls in analog circuits is complex and interactive.

A null test at one setting won’t reflect how accurately the modeler tracks across the range of controls.



---

What Null Tests Are Good For:

Verifying static accuracy at a fixed input level and tone setting.

Detecting phase, EQ, and harmonic mismatches in a controlled scenario.

Comparing two digital units to see how closely one mimics another at a technical level.



---

Bottom Line: Null tests can reveal whether two signals are digitally identical or very close, but they don’t measure everything that makes a guitar amp "feel" or "sound" right—especially under real playing conditions.

 

[paisleywookiee]

Even if it wipes the floor with the usual suspects (TONEX, Neural DSP, NAM, etc.) plenty of people will find something to bitch about.

Even if it does, I’ll give it credit for that, but I’ve already seen it. Which means I know the screen sucks.

 

[norminal]

Even if it does, I’ll give it credit for that, but I’ve already seen it. Which means I know the screen sucks.

Laughs in TONEX microwave oven cold cathode fluorescent lamp screen.

 

[paisleywookiee]

Laughs in TONEX microwave oven cold cathode fluorescent lamp screen.

Kinda apples/oranges, but at least the TONEX screen is readable at 10 feet

 

[OneEng]

I just honestly can’t see Kemper releasing a new product that’s inferior to the other products that are currently available. We shall see.

It will most certainly be better than MK1 in some respects (while remaining identical in most). I think the "inferior to other products" is dependent on your POV and your use case.

The fact that null test is needed to prove a point is telling enough
In my mind capture tech is no longer the equivalent of putting a man on the moon, other brands have cracked the code, it’s available as open source even…1 to 2 years from now every brand will offer competitive capture tech, also the very cheap ones.

Hardware, ecosystem, utilities,architecture price, EFX!!!….i think that’s where the race is gonna be run!

Your argument (and mine) is generally that something that sounds good, is good. I agree that capture will be the equivalent of power windows on a car.... and just as important a differentiator.

I can hear a difference.

I don't doubt that you hear things that aren't there. Perhaps I could recommend a good doctor?

I don't believe you.

If Kemper bring out sexy new profiling that is way more accurate, you'll be one of the first to sing its praises.

Not likely. While I understand why Kemper released a MK2 with so little differentiation from MK1, I was genuinely hoping for something more. I am not displeased either since my MK1 works beautifully already. If accuracy was at all important to me, I wouldn't be using the Kemper now.

Isn’t that literally the point of profiling?

It is.... or was. I suspect that 95% of Kemper users DON'T profile (including me. My only profile was in 2013). Accuracy is only important if you believe that ONLY an accurate capture of a specific amp can actually sound "good". Where my line of argument goes off the rails is that Kemper made its money by being the first and claiming the crown of recreation. I personally believe they mis-market the product in this respect.

In a perfect world?

If tou take a photo of a painting does it look as good? Can you correct flaws to make it more uniform?

It's never a perfect replica. It is not possible with tech as we know it.

Great point. With a model, you can have a 5150 without the silly buzzing the amp is famous for. You can also have the tone of the 5150 without carrying around the beast.

The argument being made frequently in this forum is that if it isn't exact, it can't sound good. I disagree.

A photo of a painting is not an emulation of a painting.

Yes it is. Webster says so.

Now show us on the doll where the Kemper touched you

LOL.

Until someone releases a complete multi-fx unit like the Quad Cortex or Kemper that supports high resolution NAM captures, I’m going to pass. No way in hell I’m gigging with a laptop.

Ok, I agree with the laptop thing. This has been my point for some time. It doesn't matter if NAM is a perfect capture since there is much more to gigging that simply matching the tone of a specific amp at a specific setting.

Which Mesa Mark IIc profile is that?

I believe it is from MattFig. I got it free on rig manager before he started selling profiles back around 2013/2014.

I've never been to a gig and thought anything bad about someone who achieved great tones with a rig I wouldn't choose myself, more power to them. It's nothing to do with this conversation though, really.

The point here is, if someone says ''WE HAVE THE MOST BESTEST NEW TECHNOLOGY'', someone unbiased should review that.
I look forward to know the results of a test by whomever does that.

That is fair. The claim is risky unless true since there are unbiased ways to easily prove or disprove the statement.

From above, I believe that Kemper's strengths lie elsewhere and that the accuracy argument isn't one they should be making (for many reasons the least of which is that it isn't true).

Compare that to Dave Friedman who spent a good amount of time talking to me, to answer my questions, seemed like a a good guy. Not arrogant.

Don Randall lived in Lansing before his death in 2009. I and a friend of mine met with him about an issue my friend was having with his Randall amp. Now that is service!

One Thursday evening years ago my VHT UL had a blown tube. I e-mailed the company and Steve Fryette called me Friday afternoon to help my bias the tubes.

I had a pair of Klipsch pro audio speakers for my band in the 90's. I blew a tweeter and they sent me a free replacement.

My Taylor 810 had a broken tuner (they used to use something akin to bone for them). I called the company and they sent an entire set of new tuners for free.

Kemper is nothing like any of these companies, but then again, most companies aren't!

I agree with you though. CK is abrasive and arrogant.

What does discombobulate me :) [I love that word] is that until the advent of NAM, there were, and still are, '000's of video's of real amp vs KPA Profile comparisons where the overwhelming majority of people - from pros to novices - some with very good ears - who simply could/can not consistently or reliably tell them apart from a sound or feel perspective.

So were they all wrong ? Bad ears ? Lying ? Shilling ? etc.... the advent of NAM did not and does not re-write this history.

True. I think the thing that has got many people's panties in a bunch is that Kemper denies the undeniable. Other devices produce a more perfect capture and do so more quickly and more easily than Kemper.

I don't pay much mind to those that say Kemper sounds bad. There are physicians for that sort of thing.

Regardless, I think in 1 to 2 years from now, the whole discussion about capture tech will be like asking “who does the best e-mail app, android versus Apple”…it’s tech every manufacturer will offer at good quality.

Agree. Perhaps then we can have more meaningful discussions on what device is better for what use case.

I was listening to this yesterday, fucking killer guitar tone.

Not my cup of tea, but just a general question to the forum, is it harder to duplicate ultra high gain, clean, or low to mid breakup?

Null tests doesn't tell the whole story though.

Agree. The efx and usability are MUCH more important IMO (among a host of other things).

When it comes to the marketing claim:
"the most precise amp recreation ever achieved."

Then yes, measurements - null tests and others - are the whole story.

Agree.

Just out of morbid curiosity, should Kemper MK2's new profiling algorithm definitively become "the most precise amp recreation ever achieved", are you buying a Kemper MK2?

FWIW, I am kind of skeptical that it will. I believe it will most certainly be better, but it is hard to imagine Kemper surpassing NAM.

 

[OneEng]

Pretty much. People are bitching about the new hardware not being fancy enough and others are bitching about it making their 2010 hardware outdated. People are bitching about the accuracy of profiling that nobody has heard yet.

I’ll continue to bitch about the paywalls did the Player. And that the new fixed effects are kind of underwhelming.

2013 here, but I get your drift .

I think they missed a big opportunity with the Player. If they would have priced it at ~$600 and put everything in it for free (LVL3), they would have sold so many they would have had to open a new factory just to build the thing fast enough.

I haven't hear the new fixed effects; however, seeing how I rarely (if ever) use up all 4 pre or all 4 post on my current rigs, I don't see any advantage for me personally.

 

[GTR37]

Kinda apples/oranges, but at least the TONEX screen is readable at 10 feet

unless you are gigging at Oktoberfest in a field at noon in direct sunlight
Totally unusable!!!!

 

[Dom Mcsweeney]

The argument being made frequently in this forum is that if it isn't exact, it can't sound good. I disagree.

For me at least, I just prefer the proof to back up the bold claims.
Getting even a week of 'free air time' with a claim like that, and not backing it up with evidence, is "*free false advertising" - *in my opinion.

I would probably be absolutely super duper happy as Larry if someone said "here, have this Kemper for free".
Of course there are some good tones available, and good effects and workflows.
Build quality seems good tooo.

But, I'm not happy to give any money to a company that leans on the whim of the ignorant to make their profits, without any detailed clarifications.

 

[Funk Soul Brother]

 

[quadgear]

There's zero reasons for me to look out for whatever "cocked wah" sounds produced by the KPA. If it was a general issue, finding a video/audio linik should be absolutely trivial.

This one attributes it to the noise gate: