Kemper Profiler MK 2

[LP59]

Kemper will be the most accurate. Until somebody comes out with a capture that does 100,001 frequency points.

 

[Karl Houseknecht]

Love this song and band

 

[[Nathan]]

re: a Null Test

Been doing a bit of reading - always a dangerous thing - and came across an interesting comment in a Y/T Comments section - but I don't know if its correct or not (?)

Just using NAM and Tonex as an example against a real amp.

Is the following right ?

Say NAM Null tests to a real Amp at -40 LUFS
Say Tonex Null Tests against the same real Amp at -37 LUFS

Apparently it is not that straight forward ?

For example, Tonex could reproduce the Frequencies below 50hz and above 18khz not as well and that will account for the lower LUFS Score difference.

However, as these frequencies <50hz and above >18khz are basically irrelevant to a guitar signal, there are actually no effective differences between the 2 .... their conclusion being that a Null test may (?) not be the most correct picture for meaningful accuracy comparison.

Any validity or truth or "accuracy" to this ?

My unscientific method is to do a null test that are time aligned and volume aligned as best as possible. Then compare the garbage of one null vs the other, the less garbage the better.

The result of that has always been the item that’s sounded the best to my ears before I performed the null test.

On things like regular NAM training files vs super input training files it really gets into hair splitting turf and somewhat surpasses my care factor. They’re both so good it’s borderline irrelevant to me.

 

[BenIfin]

My unscientific method is to do a null test that are time aligned and volume aligned as best as possible. Then compare the garbage of one null vs the other, the less garbage the better.

The result of that has always been the item that’s sounded the best to my ears before I performed the null test.

On things like regular NAM training files vs super input training files it really gets into hair splitting turf and somewhat surpasses my care factor. They’re both so good it’s borderline irrelevant to me.

Yep.

The poster in the Y/T channels point was that even a marked difference in Null tests does not mean "better" - you need to somehow look at or know "what frequencies" are not Null'ing ... and that's apparently (?) not an easy task (?)

It kind of made sense to my untrained brain, but I have no idea if their premise is right or not (?)

Their basic point was if the Null tests crap out in the 100hz <-> 8000kz range, chances are its going to actually audibly sound worse for guitar (?) .... but if the Null test craps out at <50hz and above 18k, the is no "perceptible human" even though the Null test scores are less (?)

Am out of my depth here though :)

 

[KingsXJJ]

Nullards.

 

[KingsXJJ]

 

[timbuck3]

Kemper told me in an email that the Player will gain the ability to Profile. I guess they lied?

Bottom line is just don’t buy it for a while right after they release the Mark too just wait like six months or so what’s a big deal I’m sure you guys have other stuff you play with

 

[DLC86]

Their basic point was if the Null tests crap out in the 100hz <-> 8000kz range, chances are its going to actually audibly sound worse for guitar (?) .... but if the Null test craps out at <50hz and above 18k, the is no "perceptible human" even though the Null test scores are less (?)

If it craps out below 50 Hz it is perfectly perceptible (if you have speakers able to reproduce those frequencies and if you listen at a high enough volume), even though our ears have reduced sensitivity in that band, but the k-weighting in the LUFS measurement roughly takes care of that.

If it craps out above 18 kHz it mainly depends on your age, and it's also the area where the K-weighting can fail cuz it actually gives more weight to frequencies that adult humans simply can't hear anymore, and where even young humans have reduced sensitivity.
So an easy improvement to those null tests could be to add a simple high-cut filter to all samples before measuring them.

But if you are comparing two amp+cab sounds (like in most null tests out there) where content above 18 kHz is already pretty low, a difference there simply can't have a huge impact on the LUFS measurement.
E.g. if the signal above 18 kHz in the sum of the original samples is at -50 dBFS, it can't be measured as -20 LUFS in the null test, not even if it is completely different, it's mathematically impossible.
At most it can be -50 dB LUFS with a steady signal, but in 99% of cases it will be lower than -50 actually, cuz dBFS is a sample peak measurement and integrated LUFS is an average of several rms measurements across a certain time interval.

 

[OneEng]

That’s why you build a board around it. Or a preamp like Friedman, Victory, etc.

Yea, about that.... the idea of buying a digital amp only to supplement it with a pedal board seems like buying a digital camera that needs film to work.

 

[ian_dissonance]

Yea, about that.... the idea of buying a digital amp only to supplement it with a pedal board seems like buying a digital camera that needs film to work.

On this we agree.

 

[Orvillain]

Yea, about that.... the idea of buying a digital amp only to supplement it with a pedal board seems like buying a digital camera that needs film to work.

What? How so?

 

[SillyOctpuss]

Yea, about that.... the idea of buying a digital amp only to supplement it with a pedal board seems like buying a digital camera that needs film to work.

There's plenty of people who already own and like using pedals but can't run a valve amp at the kind of volume most of them need to sound good. Or someone wants an effect their amp can't do, which is all of them if you're using a Fender Tone master.

 

[JiveTurkey]

Doesn't a digital amp need amplification to be considered an amp?

 

[Richard_G]

Yea, about that.... the idea of buying a digital amp only to supplement it with a pedal board seems like buying a digital camera that needs film to work.

I disagree.

There are lots of opportunities with these things.

One use case is this: If you have put together a nice pedal board you really like, but can’t or won’t haul your full stack to every gig, you can supplement your board with a small digital solution (like Tonex et al) for going direct when that is called for.

 

[paisleywookiee]

Yea, about that.... the idea of buying a digital amp only to supplement it with a pedal board seems like buying a digital camera that needs film to work.

Uh, no. It’s tailoring your sound to what you want. My shop has done plenty of boards this way. You might want to consider your way isn’t the only way.

Not only that, but in the case of the Kemper, the effects aren’t as good as a lot of individual pedals.

 

[Richard_G]

Yea, about that.... the idea of buying a digital amp only to supplement it with a pedal board seems like buying a digital camera that needs film to work.

So… is your point of view that the only worthwhile digital solution is an all-in-one system?

 

[paisleywookiee]

So… is your point of view that the only worthwhile digital solution is an all-in-one system?

Which would be positively absurd, given the existence of tube preamps, the HX Stomp, Nano Cortex, ToneX, and yes, the KPP. Lots of people also don't want to menu surf to adjust stuff; tweaking a knob for their delay or chorus right there is extremely appealing, especially to technophobes that are new to direct.

 

[PorcinePicker]

Yea, about that.... the idea of buying a digital amp only to supplement it with a pedal board seems like buying a digital camera that needs film to work.

Gotta agree. Unless you have roadies, ditching the pedal board is a primary driver behind all-in-one modelers.

I have yet to find anything that requires an add on pedal. I've visited the lands of Fractal, Line6, and Kemper, and found none of them lacking in that way. Then again, I don't use fuzz effects.

 

[SillyOctpuss]

Gotta agree. Unless you have roadies, ditching the pedal board is a primary driver behind all-in-one modelers.

I have yet to find anything that requires an add on pedal. I've visited the lands of Fractal, Line6, and Kemper, and found none of them lacking in that way. Then again, I don't use fuzz effects.

What if you've got a Tone master deluxe reverb? It's a digital amp and apart from reverb has no effects at all. Unless you're going to just use one tone or use the volume control to adjust gain levels there's not much you can do.

 

[DrewJD82]

Do I have this right-

Kemper is releasing an MKII that is essentially a FW update and a different colored unit, with the unit available for sale now but the actual updated FW is not? So…..people are just buying black MKI’s with the future expectancy that the new algorithm is going to be worth it?

If that’s even close to accurate…..