guitarsandcoffee
Newbie
- Messages
- 14
Have you tried Sweetwater? You have a nice 30-day return policy to try out things. No, I do not work there :)
I was always happy enough with the Kemper sounds - for my ears, the Stadium is better but the Kemper still does a great job considering its age IMO. Better is always welcome but it needed to be more than that when my ears were not unhappy.
Features matter to me too - I’m unlikely to use everything the stadium has to offer over its life. Its launch features are impressive and I am confident it’s got the hardware legs to grow into areas I can’t yet imagine. I did not know I wanted focus view until they invented it. I am genuinely excited by the concept of what they’ll blow me away with next and where it will go. Of course, you should never buy futures but I’m as confident as I can be that the super cool product I already have will become immeasurably cooler. I could be wrong but it’s reasonable to believe it.
If I’d invested in a mk2, I’d have had the same tones until they launch the new profiling plus a tiny handful of improvements that were of no value to me. If I’d bought in May I’d be climbing the wall of regret right now. Plus I’d have had the long, lingering feeling that I was essentially buying pretty much the same box. I tried to persuade them on the forum to convince me of the hardware differences that would allow me to buy with confidence - I am not a gear flipper…. If I’m buying something, I research as best I can and stick with it. When Line 6 offers me a demonstrably more capable platform that will grow and Kemper offers me something which, to me, seems the same? We have an issue. Especially as they had no interest in correcting my assumptions that it’s almost entirely the same box. I do not know this for sure but if my assumption were not true, why on earth would they not clearly say so? Like Jazz, you sometimes have to listen to the quiet bits.
So here we are with a rather lovely stadium at home which I’m enjoying immensely so far. I hope Kemper make their still loyal fan base happy when they finally bring out the mk2 - it would really suck to have invested in Summer and be here now. I’m hoping for good things for the folks who did that.
Thanks for that. Good to hear from a previous Kemper user that switched to Stadium.
The sad thing really is that MK2 isn't "new" at all. I suspect they are using the original MK1 main board (exact same), and the Player's faster application board. AFAIK there is no reason the new profiling would not work on MK1, meaning that Kemper is trying to "force" existing MK1 users to buy MK2 instead of just "telling it like it is".
This kind of behavior just rubs me the wrong way.
IMO, Kemper would have been lots better off by:
1) MK2 marketed as an update to the "legendary Profiler" to support the platform long term (wow! What a good long term investment!)
2) Continue to offer updates to MK1 that match MK2 features and capabilities
3) Announce development of Kemper 2 and solicit input from the community to garner good will and buy in.
Instead, they have created forced obsolescence of MK1 and pushed away loyal (and vocal) users on the web. Also, they may want to lower prices on the existing product lines and push the idea of value.
Stupid.
There will never be a Kemper 2, just like there never was a Virus 2. Christoph is using the same hardware platform he has been using for 30 years and has never shown any interest or ability to come out with a new generation product.
The only product changes they've ever made are repackaging of the existing product. Anybody who thinks there will ever be any kind of a step forward from Kemper is mistaken.
The only product changes they've ever made are repackaging of the existing product. Anybody who thinks there will ever be any kind of a step forward from Kemper is mistaken.
Enchilada Jones
Roadie
- Messages
- 852
I don’t see how Kemper is doing us wrong by keeping the price the same and yet offering improvements.
I remember buying AxeFX Ultra and not feeling like I was betrayed, ripped off, etc
I remember buying AxeFX Ultra and not feeling like I was betrayed, ripped off, etc
For a brand new user who doesn’t already have a mk1, I can see your viewpoint that they’re doing no wrong. If you buy one as a new user, you are getting a decent product that will make great sounds and potentially greater sounds in the future. It’s an increasingly difficult sell - not because it’s a bad product (it isn’t). But the competition has upped its game so much that the (recently released) mk2 is looking a little tired. If the new profiling turns out to be awesome, it’ll still make lots of people happy and that’s great. Ergonomically I don’t see how it’s possible to improve it within the confines of the platform they have. Die hard fans will say it’s easy to use. Me? I liked the knobs but found the menus a pain in the arse hence being eternally grateful when they released rig manager. Have a go with a Stadium - it shows what ease of use can be on the unit itself.
For someone who has a mk1 already, I’m not in agreement with you.
If I had paid £1350 at U.K. prices and put it next to my (great long term value) mk1, what had I actually got for my money vs what I already owned? Fixed (cut down) fx positions, faster boot up and a new paint job. Those things are worth £150 to me personally if I’m being generous. Which means I’d have paid £1200 for the new ‘expected summer’ profiling. It *still* says this on their company website. I have told them this. So have other people. It’s just rude at this point.
You would think you’d get your comms team on it as they’ve undeniably dropped the ball - these things happen but really, if you do such a thing, own it and throw people a bone who have given you money. So I’m not really in agreement that they’re not doing any wrong. If I was a new user, I’d be waiting patiently but nervously. If I’d upgraded, I’d be hoping for better from a company that I’d given £1350 to 13 years ago and the same again this year. The first purchase was incredible value for money, the latest one not so much imo.
Jarick
Rock Star
- Messages
- 4,988
If kemper never releases mk2 profiling then sure mk2 owners should be pissed. We’re a long way from that though. Mk1 has been around for 15 years so I don’t think those users should at all be upset. They’ve gotten tons of free updates over many years.
Otherwise if you bought a modeler based on what you think they should or might do in the future, and that doesn’t happen, it’s on you. As always buy gear for what it does today not for what you hope it might do down the road.
Otherwise if you bought a modeler based on what you think they should or might do in the future, and that doesn’t happen, it’s on you. As always buy gear for what it does today not for what you hope it might do down the road.
How I got here:
1. 13 years of happy Kemper use where I stayed in a blinkered bubble and did not even consider looking at another modeller. I was happy with the sounds and used to the workflow so why look to see if it really is the best thing out there (which I still believed in my bubble existence).
2. Kemper launch Mk2. I get excited and assume I’ll buy it - why wouldn’t I? I’m already with the best ecosystem. If I looked at something else I’d spend all my time tweaking rather than loading a profile and playing.
3. I notice that the only new thing of use to me on the new one is the updated profiling. Not a huge reason to spend £1350 to improve the one thing I was already more than ok with.
4. I ask them repeatedly to show me what’s actually new in there - I fully accept I’ve had awesome value from my MK1 but my brain couldn’t cope with buying the same product again years later. I got frustratingly little and at no point would they throw me a bone with that. Just the opposite.
5. I notice the Stadium and watch videos. I realise that some of the features would improve my experience and start to wonder.
6. I try a 2 week free trial of Helix Native on my PC, fully expecting the sounds to be crap (still in my bubble). Realise quickly that the tones are not crap - far from it. Some of the things in there I liked better than some of then profiles I’d been using.
7. Realised that I wanted a Stadium - if I quickly and easily found things that made my ears happy in a pc based product with a somewhat ugly interface and no knobs that is based on last generation models, not the new Agoura? Well, the Stadium would surely blow my mind. And it does.
8. Realised that I actually like modelling more than scrolling through profiles. Which this thing will do next year some time. For sure I’m looking forward to that but I’m far less into it than I thought I would be because I love the way I can dial things in here and not scroll through endless versions of someone else’s preferred sound.
So I’d say download a free trial of Helix Native and see how you go. I just wanted to know if I could live with (what I perceived as) a complex tweaking system as opposed to a profile download system. It’s weird at first but within an hour you’ll make something you like. Now imagine being able to do that by placing and dragging things on a touchscreen. Now imagine every single amp and effect having Focus view to help you dial in. If you love Natiive, Stadium is a safe bet for you. If you don’t like Native, still go try Stadium for yourself as it’s something else and it might still convince you.
Dimiguitar
Roadie
- Messages
- 570
Seeing more and more and more Fractal amp sim quality updates recently, I am reminded about a strength Kemper has had, especially in previous years, over arguably large segments of guitarists.
It's the impression that CK "got it right from the beginning". There's no need for constant updates to fix what is already perfect. Cliff always chases proper amp tones and still can't do what CK accomplished from the very start. Job done, in and out, and you get the "soul of the amp".
Now while I don't think this is quite true, as a claim, I see how it became a popular view.
Additionally, Kemper sort of popularized A/B tests among guitarists. I believe that alone raised a lot of confidence in what CK accomplished. You could check the results almost immediately, easily, and know what you got.
In that context, modelling approaches like fractal's were more so perceived as "trust me, bro" among these users. And constant updates were evidence that fractal, as the arch nemesis of Kemper, still hasn't gotten it right.
It's the impression that CK "got it right from the beginning". There's no need for constant updates to fix what is already perfect. Cliff always chases proper amp tones and still can't do what CK accomplished from the very start. Job done, in and out, and you get the "soul of the amp".
Now while I don't think this is quite true, as a claim, I see how it became a popular view.
Additionally, Kemper sort of popularized A/B tests among guitarists. I believe that alone raised a lot of confidence in what CK accomplished. You could check the results almost immediately, easily, and know what you got.
In that context, modelling approaches like fractal's were more so perceived as "trust me, bro" among these users. And constant updates were evidence that fractal, as the arch nemesis of Kemper, still hasn't gotten it right.
Dimiguitar
Roadie
- Messages
- 570
Hahahaha after seeing the textbook definition of intentional obtuseness/giving the runaround from one of their mods the last time I was at that forum regarding aliasing when presented with a video demonstrating it, I would fully expect them to shove their fingers in their ears and state “No, it’s perfect.”
Oh for sure it can go that way.
Back in the old days, years and years ago, when man was fish and profiling was seen as perfect, people like sinmix illustrated quite well shortcomings of profiling accuracy.
(These were obvious in my videos as well, during the same timeline, even though not too many people made public videos in that context. It was easier to act like people were just a bunch of dipshits that didn't know any better).
Sinmix was very vocal about inaccuracies. And quite a fire breather. You couldn't stop sinmix; he was a force of nature.
So eventually he was wiped off the Kemper forum. They deleted every single one one of his threads and posts. He was erased from Kemper history, even though being arguably the premier vendor for modern high gain profiles.
Furthermore, I don't believe his criticisms of profiling were taken seriously by CK.
I think that's part of what led Kemper to the position they are now. Not necessarily not listening to sinmix only, but the overall mentality of "we are the shit", aside from likely difficulties in improving profiling.
(Of course, at the same time, there were numerous people talking ahout how Kemper was spot on to their amps. Guitarists, and also producers who generally know way more than most others in the context of guitar tone.
I'm sure this gave CK a great deal of justified confidence.
But it is my belief it also went overboard, to the point where competition surpassed Kemper's core function, as he couldn't see reason for improvement. Now he's playing catch up).
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I knew he was banned for a bit but I didn’t know he’d had the full 1984 treatment. I’m not a metal fan so I wasn’t equipped to judge his profiles but I was always under the impression that he was well thought of in that field.
Stay Metal!
Them erasing his existence shows that they can edit things when they want to - shame they can’t remove that ‘summer’ word on their website….. they’ve only got 15 days to release and just be one season late before it’s actually the start of Winter.
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- 10,082
Profiling was never seen as perfect. There were many of us that even in the first few years were pointing out accuracy issues. If it wasn't for those people, the low-end accuracy wouldn't have been improved back in 2011/2012.
I had direct conversations with Christophe. He was always pleasant and willing to discuss things, and I respect him. But he simply couldn't hear what I was hearing. I would send him clips with obvious differences, and he would swear blind that they sounded the same. I kind of gave up after that.
Dimiguitar
Roadie
- Messages
- 570
It wasn't seen as perfect by everybody -- of course. But I think that was the case for many, even more after the early low end and aliasing updates.
(Which are far from the 47379393 Fractal updates).
I sold my first Kemper after hearing the aliasing issues, pretty much when it came out. Went back to the unit after the aliasing stuff was addressed.
Also been through convos with Kemper guys, but it was never clear to me if they (or CK) heard the differences or just didn't want to acknowledge such things.
But I do know that, from some point on, their responses weren't that friendly. I'm lazy to bring up examples, but imo things got more hostile eventually.
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Dimiguitar
Roadie
- Messages
- 570
Oh yeah, he was bonked big time.
Wow, that makes me nostalgic. Including being called a "nob" (noob) by him a million times : )He was (and is) certainly a character, but I appreciate his honestly.
I remember an interaction where he was trying to match make me with some Polish embassy woman, to move to Poland
... While calling me a nob, of course... And posting FB photos of whiskey sitting on his table
It screws with my head a little bit how they don't remove the summer date. Because it would take so little to do this, yet no shits are given.
I worked/was part of a guitar pickup company before. I couldn't imagine just leaving such wrong dates on the site, even if our market was tiny in comparison, geographically speaking.
Dimiguitar
Roadie
- Messages
- 570
Thing is, there were people doing such tests before sinmix , and before the bass end update.
But sinmx was a highly regarded vendor who took things public, via videos and multiple posts, bringing a lot of attention to inaccuracies.
Also, as stated, and as you probably saw, he would call people "nobs". The meaning of that ranged from "you're an idiot" to "I like you, friend". And some times both
I think we can imagine such subtleties not going down well on Kemper forum, mods understanding them.
And he wouldn't hold back much. You better be sure the guy would insist he didn't think profiling was as good as people would say.
Eventually, I believe Kemper guys and mods just disliked him so much, and didn't want any associations with him, or to give him a platform to sell profiles.
And they didn't want there to exist any history of him either. Which is what happened; we saw a grand historical erasure.
- Messages
- 10,082
Yeah, most vendors wouldn't do that. Because they have a financial interest in maintaining the illusion that the Kemper is good.
Er... it means "you're a cock" .... literally.Also, as stated, and as you probably saw, he would call people "nobs". The meaning of that ranged from "you're an idiot" to "I like you, friend". And some times both
The mods over there are the music tech equivalent of Reddit moderators. Losers who cannot handle true diversity of thought, and simply want an echo chamber.
Jarick
Rock Star
- Messages
- 4,988
I think there’s a real benefit to having a consistent amp tone that doesn’t change frequently with firmware updates. There’s also a benefit to some limitations which require creativity like learning to use eq after an amp to adjust the sound.
But anyone who has the mindset of “this is perfect” shouldn’t be trusted. There’s always room for improvement and you should be striving to outdo yourself from time to time.
Is it a German thing or a language barrier? It seems like a dumb thing to say. You could just as easily say profiling gets you most of the way there and you can tweak a bit with eq. Maybe down the road we can improve the accuracy a bit.
I don’t know the synth virus background but is there a difference that synths are artificial by nature where guitar amps are real physical devices? Is it something with the transients and dynamics that are very different on guitar?
In other words from the synth side is there not much benefit in chasing high fidelity where there clearly is on the guitar side?
But anyone who has the mindset of “this is perfect” shouldn’t be trusted. There’s always room for improvement and you should be striving to outdo yourself from time to time.
Is it a German thing or a language barrier? It seems like a dumb thing to say. You could just as easily say profiling gets you most of the way there and you can tweak a bit with eq. Maybe down the road we can improve the accuracy a bit.
I don’t know the synth virus background but is there a difference that synths are artificial by nature where guitar amps are real physical devices? Is it something with the transients and dynamics that are very different on guitar?
In other words from the synth side is there not much benefit in chasing high fidelity where there clearly is on the guitar side?
Ed DeGenaro
Shredder
- Messages
- 2,038
I’ll answer this way, for my usage it’s recorded tone has less byproducts bothering me compared to other digi things.
Until the UA Paradise thing slapping plugin in a DI track never had results I liked
Same holds true when I reamped other digi stuff in the past.
Kemper doesn’t do, my amps don’t do it, Tonex pedal is better than plug there.
That’s what it is for me.
Despite all the other brands have make a huge step in the last few months, the only brands that let move all the knobs of an amp in a realistic way (dynamic profiles) are:
-kemper with liquid profiling
-dibiquadro (perfect recreation of each know but few amps)
-uad paradise (same as dibiquadro but not good in high gain)
-maybe helix stadium (in the videos it seem realistic but I don't know if it has really realistic knobs).
So for me Kemper is still the king just for the liquid profiling, I don't know why there people that doesn't see it like something revolutionary.
Waiting for liquid profiling 2.0.
-kemper with liquid profiling
-dibiquadro (perfect recreation of each know but few amps)
-uad paradise (same as dibiquadro but not good in high gain)
-maybe helix stadium (in the videos it seem realistic but I don't know if it has really realistic knobs).
So for me Kemper is still the king just for the liquid profiling, I don't know why there people that doesn't see it like something revolutionary.
Waiting for liquid profiling 2.0.
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Dimiguitar
Roadie
- Messages
- 570
What he meant to say is "noob". But some times, it'd be "nob" or even "knob" :)
