Kemper Profiler MK 2

they may be limited in appeal to gigging and touring musicians ..... which I am guessing is <10% of all musicians.

Which isn’t enough to keep a company afloat, which is also shrinking as well, as they lose ground to the other companies. I think that’ll continue even further with Helix Stadium.

If I were a Kemper fan, I’d be kinda concerned about the long term viability of the company. Though there’s such a large profile ecosystem, you’d be fine from that standpoint.
 
Which isn’t enough to keep a company afloat, which is also shrinking as well, as they lose ground to the other companies. I think that’ll continue even further with Helix Stadium.

If I were a Kemper fan, I’d be kinda concerned about the long term viability of the company. Though there’s such a large profile ecosystem, you’d be fine from that standpoint.
Since it is such a robust platform, I feel pretty safe, but your point is valid.

I figure they are good to go financially for the next 3-5 years just based on sales of upgrades and the Player. The product is likely going to last nearly forever (it is built like a tank), so I could gig it for longer than I plan on gigging at this point ;).

Still, it is likely that GAS will get me before then and that is when I will be auditioning products including the new Stadium to see what fits best for live gigging.
 
I owned an FM3 three times, until I was happy with it. Over the course of several firmware versions and I believe two modeling revisions. The last time I kept it until I sold it to get an FM9.

But unlike with the Kemper, there have been significant updates to all of the ingredients whereas the core stuff Orvillain has issues with on the Kemper, has never seen any real overhaul.
 
significant updates to all of the ingredients
Except the UI...

Avoid Spider Man GIF
 
But unlike with the Kemper, there have been significant updates to all of the ingredients whereas the core stuff Orvillain has issues with on the Kemper, has never seen any real overhaul.
Well .... at least until later this summer ;).

The new profiles are said to utilize >100,000 points. Does anyone know how many the current MK1 utilizes?
 
The new profiles are said to utilize >100,000 points. Does anyone know how many the current MK1 utilizes?

That's meaningless marketing speak without the technical context, but 100,000 "points" seems like a very low number to curve fit complex non-linear systems. In fact, the notion of "points" seems like an archaic approach.
 
Well .... at least until later this summer ;).

The new profiles are said to utilize >100,000 points. Does anyone know how many the current MK1 utilizes?
I know Kemper has made reference to 100,000 frequency points, but that wording makes no sense.
 
That's meaningless marketing speak without the technical context, but 100,000 "points" seems like a very low number to curve fit complex non-linear systems. In fact, the notion of "points" seems like an archaic approach.
I thought Id throw this in Chat GPT and see what it would spit out. No idea if this is correct or not so take it with a grain of salt

TLDR - it estimates current profiling would be 2000-5000 points

my question - "Kemper plans to sample 100,000 points across the frequency range in their mark 2 profiling, based on existing patents and known information, how many sample points do they currently use"


Based on the original **Kemper Profiling Amplifier patents**, the number of frequency points used in profiling is not explicitly listed as a fixed number like "X points." However, we can deduce the general resolution and method from the profiling process described in **Kemper's U.S. Patent 8,619,026 B2** and related documents.

---

### 🔍 What the Patent Says (Summary):

1. **Frequency Response Capture**:

* The system measures the frequency-dependent transfer function using **test signals** (e.g. impulses, bursts, or swept sine waves).
* The result is a **frequency response** over a broad range (typically 20 Hz to 20 kHz).

2. **Resolution**:

* The patent describes an **FFT-based analysis**, implying that resolution depends on:

* **FFT size**
* **Sampling rate**
* **Windowing function**
* For example, a typical FFT length of 2048–8192 at 44.1 or 48 kHz sampling gives **tens to hundreds of frequency bins**, not 100,000.

3. **Dynamic Profiling**:

* Kemper doesn't rely on frequency-domain data alone. It supplements with **dynamic tests** (short bursts, tone pulses, playing clips) to capture **nonlinear behavior**, which reduces reliance on dense frequency bin coverage.

---

### 🧠 Estimated Number of Points (Original Kemper):

While the patent doesn’t say exactly, inference from:

* typical FFT sizes (e.g. 4096-point FFT @ 44.1 kHz gives \~2048 bins, but only \~1000 below 20 kHz),
* burst test responses,
* and the **lightweight profile file sizes** (\~few KBs)

Suggests the **original Kemper used fewer than 2,000–5,000 points** for frequency-dependent profiling data — likely **log-spaced or perceptually weighted** to match amp/cabinet characteristics.

---

### 🔁 Contrast With Mark II (Rumored 100,000 Points)

* A massive jump in resolution, likely tied to improvements in CPU/DSP power and a desire to capture **much more detailed IR-like behavior**, possibly moving closer to **full-resolution convolution** territory or hybrid modeling.

---

Would you like a direct excerpt from the patent that outlines their test signal method or the type of FFT analysis they reference?
 
I thought Id throw this in Chat GPT and see what it would spit out. No idea if this is correct or not so take it with a grain of salt

TLDR - it estimates current profiling would be 2000-5000 points

my question - "Kemper plans to sample 100,000 points across the frequency range in their mark 2 profiling, based on existing patents and known information, how many sample points do they currently use"


Based on the original **Kemper Profiling Amplifier patents**, the number of frequency points used in profiling is not explicitly listed as a fixed number like "X points." However, we can deduce the general resolution and method from the profiling process described in **Kemper's U.S. Patent 8,619,026 B2** and related documents.

---

### 🔍 What the Patent Says (Summary):

1. **Frequency Response Capture**:

* The system measures the frequency-dependent transfer function using **test signals** (e.g. impulses, bursts, or swept sine waves).
* The result is a **frequency response** over a broad range (typically 20 Hz to 20 kHz).

2. **Resolution**:

* The patent describes an **FFT-based analysis**, implying that resolution depends on:

* **FFT size**
* **Sampling rate**
* **Windowing function**
* For example, a typical FFT length of 2048–8192 at 44.1 or 48 kHz sampling gives **tens to hundreds of frequency bins**, not 100,000.

3. **Dynamic Profiling**:

* Kemper doesn't rely on frequency-domain data alone. It supplements with **dynamic tests** (short bursts, tone pulses, playing clips) to capture **nonlinear behavior**, which reduces reliance on dense frequency bin coverage.

---

### 🧠 Estimated Number of Points (Original Kemper):

While the patent doesn’t say exactly, inference from:

* typical FFT sizes (e.g. 4096-point FFT @ 44.1 kHz gives \~2048 bins, but only \~1000 below 20 kHz),
* burst test responses,
* and the **lightweight profile file sizes** (\~few KBs)

Suggests the **original Kemper used fewer than 2,000–5,000 points** for frequency-dependent profiling data — likely **log-spaced or perceptually weighted** to match amp/cabinet characteristics.

---

### 🔁 Contrast With Mark II (Rumored 100,000 Points)

* A massive jump in resolution, likely tied to improvements in CPU/DSP power and a desire to capture **much more detailed IR-like behavior**, possibly moving closer to **full-resolution convolution** territory or hybrid modeling.

---

Would you like a direct excerpt from the patent that outlines their test signal method or the type of FFT analysis they reference?

Yes, for an EQ tone match using FFT, using a good window function, you'd have bins that number in the hundreds, so that's not what Kemper is referring to. And a tone match is not capturing an amp anyway.

It might mean they are sampling a couple of seconds of audio at 44.1 KHz, but that would be a very small sample and would be nothing to brag about.

Considering the meaningless "most powerful amp recreation" that also appears in that sentence on Kemper's web site, it seems pretty likely that the "100,000 points" is complete nonsense.
 
Yes, for an EQ tone match using FFT, using a good window function, you'd have bins that number in the hundreds, so that's not what Kemper is referring to. And a tone match is not capturing an amp anyway.

It might mean they are sampling a couple of seconds of audio at 44.1 KHz, but that would be a very small sample and would be nothing to brag about.

Considering the meaningless "most powerful amp recreation" that also appears in that sentence on Kemper's web site, it seems pretty likely that the "100,000 points" is complete nonsense.
Ya, I'll be pleasantly surprised if it's a big step up, but the more info that comes out the more grim it appears. I agree the numbers are kinda pointless and so is 'powerful' as both don't reference anything. I feel like if it was a substantial step up the marketing people would be all over it saying 'double the xxx of the previous method'

If it does come out that this could have ran on Gen 1 and this is all just garbage to make people buy Gen 2 hardware then I don't think it will end well for them...
 
But unlike with the Kemper, there have been significant updates to all of the ingredients whereas the core stuff Orvillain has issues with on the Kemper, has never seen any real overhaul.

Fair enough, I don’t follow it closely enough. I just know the Kemper was mediocre to crap for high gain as of last summer, when my pal sold his.
 
First, a 4000-5000 point FFT or system response curve would be quite good IMO. A 100,000 point FFT or system response curve would be well beyond the point of diminishing returns. FWIW, FFT's have to be in divisions of powers of 2. You can't make the algorithm work with 1000 points, it requires 1024 (as an example).

I seriously doubt they are talking about time series points. That would be pathetic indeed.
 
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