Is the Poly Ample Undergained?

[banned]

I really like this unit because of the well-curated 56 amps many of which I dig. I also like that the tone-stack is apparently modeled which is different from other NAM players. But I'm ultimately puzzled by the tones coming out of this thing. Here are all 56 amps demoed -



I know Pete doesn't use too much gain but he is hitting the strings pretty hard on some of this and there's hardly any breakup (listen to Marshall JMP at 12:45 for example). So that brings me to some of the settings - the 'Volume' is a post amp volume increase. So the 'Gain' and 'Boost' knobs are what drive the amp. The 'Boost' knob is apparently the exact same thing as the 'Gain' knob, but just separated out so you can hit that programmed boost level for increase in gain for leads etc.

At the nominal 'Gain' level seen in most of the demos, there doesn't seem to be much amp gain, especially on the heavier amps. Bumping the gain knob helps a lot as seen in some of the other pedal demo videos (like Shawn Tubbs') - but that has me puzzled about what actual amp gain level the profile was captured to begin with, and how that value correlates to the 'Gain' setting on the Ample.

Reminds me almost of the situation when playing plugin amp models and deciding what level to set the audio interface gain level at. Yes, I understand that I can just set things to taste...but, I'm interested in knowing what the right 'Gain' level to use is to replicate how the profile was captured.

Which brings another question - if the profile was captured at very low gain levels, for whatever reason - this being a capture - how does that translate when you play at a far higher gain level? Obviously, there is a level of gain for which the results are still representative of the amp character. But I'm thinking that past a certain gain level, your results are no longer fully accurate and you'd be 'extrapolating' so to speak.

Any thoughts?

 

[yeky83]

that has me puzzled about what actual amp gain level the profile was captured to begin with, and how that value correlates to the 'Gain' setting on the Ample.

Poly's noted on the forums that 3-5 gain knob positions were captured for the amps. So I'd presume it pretty well represents a wide range of the amp's gain character without too much "extrapolating."

Gain setting on any device like this just isn't going to match well to the gain setting on amps. The gain knobs on amps have different tapers, some of them do too much all at once, some of them do too little past a certain range, etc. Digital devices aren't going to go through the trouble to copy all that crappy behavior, so you're going to just have to set things to taste... i.e. set slider to the desired amount of gain.

I've heard lots of reports of the Ample being undergained. My guess would be that Poly designed it so the amp captures would express their whole gain range with the boost applied. So with the boost, the amp captures wouldn't be undergained... but I haven't been able to confirm with anyone who owns this thing and complains it's undergained on whether using the boost satisfactorily gains it up or not.

 

[Enchilada Jones]

I found that, with most amps that I want to be pushed into breaking up well into distortion, keeping the gain setting above 60% and the volume set at least to 50% I then want the boost set to around 30-40% for when I want a boost to the gain. Anything above that level of gain I like using a pedal if front. It seems to respond to pedals quite well.

Note, I don’t play palm muting chug fest kind of music so your mileage may vary.

The other thing is, with many of the amps, you can push the internal level into clipping if you set both volume and gain up in the 80% or more range so find that level and back it off. That’s how I came up with the above average settings. That doesn’t mean you can’t max the gain and boost but if you do back the volume off to keep the output below clipping. With gain maxed having the volume below 50% is not a problem, the quality of the sound stays at a high quality.

I spent some time setting all the amps up and saving the defaults as I wanted and no longer think the ‘captures’ are done with improperly low gain levels. They certainly could have been created in a hotter state but I think that would limit the versatility of each one.

I’m keeping the Ample, it is really good for using it as the amp for your pedal board and also just grab a guitar, the Ample and headphones and you are set for silent practice/ composing etc.

 

[banned]

Poly's noted on the forums that 3-5 gain knob positions were captured for the amps. So I'd presume it pretty well represents a wide range of the amp's gain character without too much "extrapolating."

Gain setting on any device like this just isn't going to match well to the gain setting on amps. The gain knobs on amps have different tapers, some of them do too much all at once, some of them do too little past a certain range, etc. Digital devices aren't going to go through the trouble to copy all that crappy behavior, so you're going to just have to set things to taste... i.e. set slider to the desired amount of gain.

I've heard lots of reports of the Ample being undergained. My guess would be that Poly designed it so the amp captures would express their whole gain range with the boost applied. So with the boost, the amp captures wouldn't be undergained... but I haven't been able to confirm with anyone who owns this thing and complains it's undergained on whether using the boost satisfactorily gains it up or not.

What does it mean that 3-5 gain positions were captured? Isn't it a single NAM profile for each individual amp?

With NDSP, they train an entire Neural Net on all multiple knob settings (including the gain knob) for an amp - but over here, there's a single NAM profile...which I believe is a snapshot at a single setting knob combination. Can you post the original forum link?

 

[banned]

I found that, with most amps that I want to be pushed into breaking up well into distortion, keeping the gain setting above 60% and the volume set at least to 50% I then want the boost set to around 30-40% for when I want a boost to the gain. Anything above that level of gain I like using a pedal if front. It seems to respond to pedals quite well.

Note, I don’t play palm muting chug fest kind of music so your mileage may vary.

The other thing is, with many of the amps, you can push the internal level into clipping if you set both volume and gain up in the 80% or more range so find that level and back it off. That’s how I came up with the above average settings. That doesn’t mean you can’t max the gain and boost but if you do back the volume off to keep the output below clipping. With gain maxed having the volume below 50% is not a problem, the quality of the sound stays at a high quality.

I spent some time setting all the amps up and saving the defaults as I wanted and no longer think the ‘captures’ are done with improperly low gain levels. They certainly could have been created in a hotter state but I think that would limit the versatility of each one.

I’m keeping the Ample, it is really good for using it as the amp for your pedal board and also just grab a guitar, the Ample and headphones and you are set for silent practice/ composing etc.

According to this post from the developer -

- the gain and boost are not really percentages of a max value. Rather, they're just a number - more is more. With your example, with the gain at 60 and the boost at 30, that means 90 gain. You could set the gain at 90 and the boost at 0 to achieve the same result. But that does mean that gain at 100 and boost at 100 is 200 (i.e. over 100 'max')

Which brings me back to the original question - what gain level setting (whether just gain or a combination of gain+boost) corroborates to the original profile capture gain level? I can't tell what gain is the 'nominal' capture value and what gain settings boost or reduce the gain. Like - do you assume that gain at 50 is the nominal level and that levels over that are actually boosting? Or is nominal a gain level of 100? Or is 200 (gain = 100 and boost = 100) the nominal?

I'm not a metal / chug player either but I do like gain when needed and gainy amps to sound / feel like gainy amps. I don't need them juiced all the way ... but in almost all the videos, the gain seems to be on the low side - almost like Amplitube sometimes can be in the plugin world on Fender models (and they're the 'authorized' Fender plugin modelers)

 

[Enchilada Jones]

I’m just guessing but I bet the ‘Gain’ set to its mid point would be where he would have it to match the sample gain as it was captured and just fooling around with it I don’t think the ‘Boost’ is doubling the Gain at 100% of its range to 200%. More like an additional 50% but it’s hard to say because it behaves like a real amp so maybe it is a doubling but compression is coming into play.

I think on the Plexi model at 100% boost off it doesn’t get quite as saturated and or compressed as any Fractal or Line 6 Plexi model does when you dime those. But adding over half the available gain in the Boost seems to get you there. Sorry, never had the pleasure of a real Plexi so I’m a bad source for that.
I compared Ample to the UA Lion and was able to tweak Ample to replicate a few of my favs on Lion. That was enough to make me realize all the other improved features of Ample meant the Lion ( and Ruby) were for sale…

 

[banned]

I’m just guessing but I bet the ‘Gain’ set to its mid point would be where he would have it to match the sample gain as it was captured and just fooling around with it I don’t think the ‘Boost’ is doubling the Gain at 100% of its range to 200%. More like an additional 50% but it’s hard to say because it behaves like a real amp so maybe it is a doubling but compression is coming into play.

I think on the Plexi model at 100% boost off it doesn’t get quite as saturated and or compressed as any Fractal or Line 6 Plexi model does when you dime those. But adding over half the available gain in the Boost seems to get you there. Sorry, never had the pleasure of a real Plexi so I’m a bad source for that.
I compared Ample to the UA Lion and was able to tweak Ample to replicate a few of my favs on Lion. That was enough to make me realize all the other improved features of Ample meant the Lion ( and Ruby) were for sale…

The boost setting at 100 is indeed doubling the overall gain setting to 200 if the initial gain setting is already at 100. Of course, that doesn't mean that the actual gain in the 'amp' is going up by that amount - which is my point - I don't WHAT the gain is doing here??

Since the 'amp' is not a real amp model but rather a capture - all I can think is that the signal level is just getting hotter - but I don't know what that does to this capture.

At this point, I'm just trying to figure out:

a) how the profile was captured (i.e. what gain level) and
b) what gain setting on the device equates to this default / nominal gain level.

These are important considerations for me considering this device as a potential buyer. I wish there was a clear answer to this question.

 

[yeky83]

What does it mean that 3-5 gain positions were captured? Isn't it a single NAM profile for each individual amp?

With NDSP, they train an entire Neural Net on all multiple knob settings (including the gain knob) for an amp - but over here, there's a single NAM profile...which I believe is a snapshot at a single setting knob combination. Can you post the original forum link?

"We capture 3-5 positions for the drive / volume knobs for each channel and circuit model the rest of the tone stack."

Poly Ample - Amp Sim pedal

So, is that midi over USB-C? I'm wondering how I could link up with the 5-pin DIN on my H90. 3.5mm TRS type A, same as all our other pedals. So you'll just need a 5 pin DIN to 3.5mm adapter, you're local dealer like Perfect Circuit will have the cables in stock.

www.thegearpage.net

I’m just guessing but I bet the ‘Gain’ set to its mid point would be where he would have it to match the sample gain as it was captured and just fooling around with it I don’t think the ‘Boost’ is doubling the Gain at 100% of its range to 200%. More like an additional 50% but it’s hard to say because it behaves like a real amp so maybe it is a doubling but compression is coming into play.

I think on the Plexi model at 100% boost off it doesn’t get quite as saturated and or compressed as any Fractal or Line 6 Plexi model does when you dime those. But adding over half the available gain in the Boost seems to get you there. Sorry, never had the pleasure of a real Plexi so I’m a bad source for that.
I compared Ample to the UA Lion and was able to tweak Ample to replicate a few of my favs on Lion. That was enough to make me realize all the other improved features of Ample meant the Lion ( and Ruby) were for sale…

Yup, this was my guess as well. Your Plexi experience seems to confirm it, as well as Poly's response that he designed it to give rhythm and lead amount of gains per amp with the Boost.

The boost setting at 100 is indeed doubling the overall gain setting to 200 if the initial gain setting is already at 100. Of course, that doesn't mean that the actual gain in the 'amp' is going up by that amount - which is my point - I don't WHAT the gain is doing here??

Since the 'amp' is not a real amp model but rather a capture - all I can think is that the signal level is just getting hotter - but I don't know what that does to this capture.

@Enchilada Jones experience with the Poly Plexi seems to confirm that the Poly Gain+Boost represents the real amp's Gain knob.

 

[banned]

"We capture 3-5 positions for the drive / volume knobs for each channel and circuit model the rest of the tone stack."

Poly Ample - Amp Sim pedal

So, is that midi over USB-C? I'm wondering how I could link up with the 5-pin DIN on my H90. 3.5mm TRS type A, same as all our other pedals. So you'll just need a 5 pin DIN to 3.5mm adapter, you're local dealer like Perfect Circuit will have the cables in stock.

www.thegearpage.net

Yup, this was my guess as well. Your Plexi experience seems to confirm it, as well as Poly's response that he designed it to give rhythm and lead amount of gains per amp with the Boost.

@Enchilada Jones experience with the Poly Plexi seems to confirm that the Poly Gain+Boost represents the real amp's Gain knob.

Very helpful post. So this device is unique in that it's the only one that models the Tone-Stack AND you also get multiple profiles from multiple gain values which are then interpolated between somehow.

Both of these capabilities are unique in the world of NAM.

However, the question remains - what exactly is 100% gain (I'm thinking 100% volume on non-Master volume amps) - is it at 100% Gain setting + 100% Boost setting? Or is it just 100% Gain setting?

Which also leaves the question, how exactly do you work with Master Volume amps? Because according to below post, the 'Volume' knob is a pure volume increase AFTER the amp. Is the Master Volume level fixed?

I really like this pedal (including the interface) but just confused about how it works. There aren't too many videos online and looks like Enchilada Jones is one of the few who own one here. I really hate buying and returning but I may have to do that and try this out in person.

 

[Antipodes]

I suspect you could get clarification from the developer about these questions but I wonder if your are overthinking things. The level of volume and the level of distortion are both obvious to anyone who has used a tube amp. Adjust the controls to suit your preferences as far as tone goes and enjoy.