I just put my FM3T up against my Ampero Stage II and I’m enlightened.

[Frodebro]

Funny you brought up the modeling in Logic. I remember when I first had a copy of it, around 2001, 2002 I think... I used the built in guitar modeling for some tones and really liked it lol. I have no idea what it's like now since I gave up on Logic years ago. I liked the Sansamp plugin back then too.

I’ve been running Logic since 9 and have the current version now, but I haven’t even thought about trying the amp models in there. I should probably check them out at some point and see if they’re usable or not.

 

[KingsXJJ]

I’m not saying Fractal sucked.

Eh, you like what you like. Even if the playback methods were less than ideal, they were also the constants in the comparison, and so imo those aren’t a big factor in the difference here.

If you’re happy with the Hotone, that’s awesome, enjoy! It’s nice that it’s the cheaper option too!

If you want to double check the comparison, I’d just say to make sure things like stereo FX / width and reverb (stereo vs mono, type, length, pre-delay) are comparable on both units when comparing on headphones (that’s a huge factor with headphones), that the output volume is identical when comparing through the TM (to make sure one isn’t clipping the TM’s input), and that things like bass and treble are similar on the patches on both units so that you’re not inadvertently hyping one up.

…but that’s only if you want to be more “scientific” or if you want to be “sure”. If you just want to play guitar and you like the sounds you’re getting, then have fun :)

Thank you for the advice. I have tried to keep it very simple with basic amp tones dry. I also compared them with just a bit of delay or reverb but of course those aren’t one to one. It may be that my headphones or other playback systems just favor the Hotone. I’m not trying to say that Fractal is lacking or that the Hotone is superior. I am just shocked that a critical listening session comparing the two could even lead to this result. And at least to my ears, there is one clear winner. Honestly, it’s not even that close. I had to hook up other gear to do sound checks to make sure my hearing wasn’t shot that day due to allergies or something.

I’m not trying to push a narrative. Just reporting what I found. Don’t shoot the messenger! I completely get that others may have different results!

 

[ejecta]

Even if the playback methods were less than ideal, they were also the constants in the comparison, and so imo those aren’t a big factor in the difference here.

It’s the old tired “you’re doing it wrong” that’s why you don’t like it excuse.

 

[Frodebro]

it the old tired “you’re doing it wrong” that’s why don’t like it excuse.

That really does get thrown out there too easily. Sometimes somebody IS doing something wrong (like not having a cab block active), but sometimes it just comes down to personal preference, which is purely subjective.

 

[JCW308]

I think the next big Ampero modeler is going to be incredibly good. The Stage just needs a little more DSP to be really great.

 

[synthpenguin]

I’m not saying Fractal sucked.

Thank you for the advice. I have tried to keep it very simple with basic amp tones dry. I also compared them with just a bit of delay or reverb but of course those aren’t one to one. It may be that my headphones or other playback systems just favor the Hotone. I’m not trying to say that Fractal is lacking or that the Hotone is superior. I am just shocked that a critical listening session comparing the two could even lead to this result. And at least to my ears, there is one clear winner. Honestly, it’s not even that close. I had to hook up other gear to do sound checks to make sure my hearing wasn’t shot that day due to allergies or something.

I’m not trying to push a narrative. Just reporting what I found. Don’t shoot the messenger! I completely get that others may have different results!

Yeah, makes sense, and totally valid!

Others might disagree with you, but this sort of thing is a great reminder that spending a bunch to “upgrade” isn’t always worth it, or even really an upgrade, to everyone. It’s so subjective. Even if the more expensive stuff is better at X or y, or is more accurate or less z in measurable ways, so much of the cheaper stuff is still so good these days. ETA: And accuracy isn’t everyone’s goal anyway.

 

[Mikael Dez]

Funny you brought up the modeling in Logic. I remember when I first had a copy of it, around 2001, 2002 I think... I used the built in guitar modeling for some tones and really liked it lol. I have no idea what it's like now since I gave up on Logic years ago. I liked the Sansamp plugin back then too.

For high gain I really couldn’t get along with it at all, but for cleans and crunch it seemed good, but I stopped trying with Logic amps after I didn’t get a high gain tone I liked

 

[synthpenguin]

From what I’ve heard, Logic amps are really great…at vocals, and synths, and drums, and….not-guitars.

 

[timbuck3]

I went through headphones with amp and cab sims on as well as off going in to my Fender TM Super.

In both cases, I preferred the Hotone. Crazy right? I mean I love Fractal but I had never done up straight comparison between the two. I know some of you must be thinking this guy is deaf and/or can’t play. Maybe. But maybe not. It might be limited to my playback scenarios. It ight be due to what tones I like. I’m not sure.

I am seriously thinking about selling my FM3 and just helping the Stage and AxeFXIII. I’m not basking Fractal in the least nor pushing the Hotone. I did use my best guitars as well. Kind of stunned and surprised. Perhaps my idea of tone and feel is different?

What kind of music/ playing?? Clean?edge of breakup? Bluesy? Metal etc

 

[laxu]

I expect a good modeler to deliver good sound in to studio headphones, studio monitors or direct in to DAW. Maybe I’m wrong about that. At any rate, the Hotone delivered what I was hoping for and I was disappointed in what the Fractal unit provided under those circumstances. I’m as surprised as you!

I think it will depend a lot on what you have. I've got a pile of headphones and all of them sound different, some even drastically so.

I keep recommending the Sennheiser HD650/6XX/490 Pro because all of them are pretty neutral out of the box and don't really need any correction to sound good. Then it's just a question of the modeler being able to drive them as all are higher impedance. Hotone doesn't seem to have any real issues in this regard, and FM3's headphone amp is fantastic.

Headphone setups always need some sort of room ambiance to make guitar sound natural, so the quality of reverbs makes a difference. Fractal is of course great at this but Hotone is no slouch, many of its reverbs are really nice. Delays are a bit more "meh" but sound good nevertheless.

Hotone lives in this interesting "great value for money" spot where I can tell its amp modeling accuracy is not as realistic as the 3-5x more expensive modelers, but it's also not that far away either. Even the stock cabs are really good, just with more limited options which honestly makes them a bit easier to dial in since you aren't mulling over exact placement of multiple mics etc.

Depending on what tones you are after, the issues with Hotone's amp modeling might be largely non-issues. If you are not chasing poweramp drive from master volume amp models, you'll have a good time.

Ultimately, you like what you like. There's many modelers that I've thought were fun to play and sounded great, accuracy be damned.

 

[KingsXJJ]

What kind of music/ playing?? Clean?edge of breakup? Bluesy? Metal etc

Hard rock. Centered around Marshall and Marshall variants.

 

[KingsXJJ]

I think it will depend a lot on what you have. I've got a pile of headphones and all of them sound different, some even drastically so.

I keep recommending the Sennheiser HD650/6XX/490 Pro because all of them are pretty neutral out of the box and don't really need any correction to sound good. Then it's just a question of the modeler being able to drive them as all are higher impedance. Hotone doesn't seem to have any real issues in this regard, and FM3's headphone amp is fantastic.

Headphone setups always need some sort of room ambiance to make guitar sound natural, so the quality of reverbs makes a difference. Fractal is of course great at this but Hotone is no slouch, many of its reverbs are really nice. Delays are a bit more "meh" but sound good nevertheless.

Hotone lives in this interesting "great value for money" spot where I can tell its amp modeling accuracy is not as realistic as the 3-5x more expensive modelers, but it's also not that far away either. Even the stock cabs are really good, just with more limited options which honestly makes them a bit easier to dial in since you aren't mulling over exact placement of multiple mics etc.

Depending on what tones you are after, the issues with Hotone's amp modeling might be largely non-issues. If you are not chasing poweramp drive from master volume amp models, you'll have a good time.

Ultimately, you like what you like. There's many modelers that I've thought were fun to play and sounded great, accuracy be damned.

It’s possible the headphones were an influence. I used a pair I’m very familiar with and that I use consistently for this purpose across all my modelers. They are Yamaha studio headphones and I consider them reasonably flat. I did buy a pair of open back headphones recently that according to the reviews and associated measurements were fairly neutral. I haven’t had a chance to unbox them yet so perhaps I’ll give them a try and see how that goes.

I think you may be right about accuracy as well. I have no doubt that the Fractal stuff is almost certainly more accurate. It may be that I prefer the inaccuracy! And I do want to be 100% clear that I am not in any way saying that the FM3 wasn’t good or even great sounding. It’s so great I hadn’t ever bothered with a comparison like this before. I’m also not saying the Hotone is better. I just preferred it under these circumstances. I’m going to repeat the experiment to see if the findings hold.

The only thing I can say with any certainty is that I now believe without any shadow of a doubt that it is possible for me to get tones that I really like from a mid-tier device made by a brand many would not even consider trying. And that modeling has come a long long way relatively recently IMO. It makes me look very much forward to trying out the new NUX Amp Academy Stomp and the new Line 6 gear.

Who knows? I may just end up selling both of my Fractal units to finance getting a shiny new Stadium “X”. It won’t be a preorder though. I’ll need to check one out in person to make sure it’s for me. I’m still kind of shocked about this and I appreciate not being called a fool for sharing my thoughts. I hesitated even posting anything about it.

 

[Richard_G]

It’s perfectly fine to prefer one product over another, even if you thought it would be the other way around. Use what you like.

 

[OrganicZed]

@KingsXJJ what exact model of headphones are you using? I ask because the current generation of Fractal products perform very poorly with low impedance headphones and that might be part of the issue.

 

[Frodebro]

@KingsXJJ what exact model of headphones are you using? I ask because the current generation of Fractal products perform very poorly with low impedance headphones and that might be part of the issue.

I haven’t had any issues with my Beyerdynamic 770s, and I have the 80 ohm version.

 

[KingsXJJ]

@KingsXJJ what exact model of headphones are you using? I ask because the current generation of Fractal products perform very poorly with low impedance headphones and that might be part of the issue.

Yamaha HPH-MT8 37 Ohm.​

 

[OrganicZed]

Yamaha HPH-MT8 37 Ohm.​

That is likely an issue. The output impedance of the FM3 headphone amp is 35 Ohms. This means that your 37 Ohm headphones will be severely under dampened and will sound quite bad with the built in headphone amp. Try running through an external headphone amplifier (such as on your audio interface) and see if it sounds better.

I run an external headphone amp because the internal amp in the Axe-FX III is seriously bad sounding with my IEMs.

Edit: corrected 38 to 35 Ohms

 

[KingsXJJ]

That is likely an issue. The output impedance of the FM3 headphone amp is 38 Ohms. This means that your 37 Ohm headphones will be severely under dampened and will sound quite bad with the built in headphone amp. Try running through an external headphone amplifier (such as on your audio interface) and see if it sounds better.

I run an external headphone amp because the internal amp in the Axe-FX III is seriously bad sounding with my IEMs.

Thanks! I have some 49 Ohm HPH-MT7’s and 80 Ohm Beyerdynamics 900’s that I’ll try and report back!

 

[KingsXJJ]

The specs for the FM3T list 35 Ohm headphone out. Hotone Stage listed as 47 Ohm.

 

[laxu]

Thanks! I have some 49 Ohm HPH-MT7’s and 80 Ohm Beyerdynamics 900’s that I’ll try and report back!

Just understand the Beyerdynamics likely require a lot of correction. You can use the global EQ and dig up AutoEQ curves for the headphones.

I recommend you run both modelers into an audio interface and check if that sounds better.