I don't hate the music (most of the time) - I hate the production

[BahamaDada]

This morning while I was driving to work I had to listen to pop radio. I forgot my USB stick for the car audio. At work we always listen to pop radio, bc we have all kinds of people - I mean: We are a job school. As much as I want to listen to Gojira all day in my class room/workshop... I can't. Or: I shouldn't.

On came a normally super horrible artist very, very (did I say very?) popular in Germany. He just had a huge concert in his hometown and obviously they aired the whole concert this weekend. Now they played an excerpt of it. He was there with a whole band (normal band line up + percussion + brass/horn section).

What can I say? A normally super lame awful and overplayed song was suddenly... interesting. It had different tempi. It had groove. It had "air". It had fills of the different instruments and it just felt alive.

This has lead me to a strange theory I developed in my head this morning:
I don't hate the music - I hate the overproduction of all and everything.

I wanted to test it and searched on YT for live concerts (as in: Fully live - band and everythin) of (otherwise) horrible pop radio artists. It did also NOT sound shit.

I don't know why I write this. Maybe relief, maybe epiphany, maybe I just want to hear your folks opinion on this.

Bonus: Same for me with metal. I hear Rock and Metal for over half my life, yet I can't stand the post-2010's overÜBERproduced Metal. I know Metal was often overproduced before, too, but IMO it slowly but steady went worse. These days I often can't stand der six-duple panned guitars with 2 ambient cleans behind it, where I just KNOW, that the band only has 2 guitarists and they will either a) never do it like the record so it may sound "thin" or b) let a bunch of backing tracks roll to a click for all the wall of sound stuff. Or both.

 

[T Gobbs]

agreed. There’s an army of world class songwriters churning this stuff out, and an equal number of golden-eared execs greenlighting it for mass consumption. Great songs are everywhere, but the embellishments are getting to be a bit much. The fight to make a song feel “cinematic” feels like the new loudness war.

 

[Whizzinby]

Yeah a lot of new stuff is produced to the point where all the life is sucked out of a song.

Regarding modern metal, the production itself seems to become a member of the band. (And not just in the techniques they all seem to use) ) I was watching the making of a Periphery album and they weren’t recording songs they hashed out in a room together, they were piecing together riffs and ideas in front of a computer. They are ultimately producing cool stuff, so no hate at all, but it was hard to distinguish between the production, mixing, and writing during the process. Obviously they are killer and creative players, but it almost feels as if they are producers who just happen to be playing all the instruments, rather than dudes recording an album. (If that makes any sense) Like there is the technical influence of modern metal production, and then the influence the modern production process is playing on the writing of the music itself.

 

[la szum]

Yup. Yup. Yup. Full agreement! The modern production sucks. It is so unnaturally hyped
that bands need to play along to tracks live to capture the same feel as the recorded music.

That, to me, is how insidious the method is. It not only impacts what happens in the studio, but
also becomes that slippery slope where bands are maybe not playing as "live" in concert as we
would all like to think they are.

 

[TSJMajesty]

Sure, there are certain production techniques I don't like, but overall, I love the way the recorded music sounds. As soon as you record an extra track, beyond the # of musicians you have in the band, is that too far to be able to replicate live? Of course, no. But if a band only has 1 guitarist, I'm fine with an opening riff having 6 guitar tracks. It sounds amazing to me, especially because of stereo.

But for me, part of going to see a band live is to see how they play the songs live. I generally like to hear them stick pretty close to what's on the recording, but if there are parts that no one can cover, I do feel that using tracks is going too far. But that's just my own opinion. I feel it's kind of disingenuous.

Like for example, Muse takes a hired musician on tour with them. And Matt Bellamy has even taken that "tool" to an extra degree, having him play the verse parts to Uprising, so he can go strutting down the runway and just sing, until the bridge/solo comes up, and then he plays the guitar part himself.

So I'm kind of on the middle of the fence, as I love hearing a lush studio record, complete with any/all/whatever additional voices/parts the composer can imagine. And if the live reproduction of that song can do it justice, without resorting to the use of pre-recorded tracks, then that's cool also.

Just imagine how this would've turned out, if Page hadn't done all the guitar overdubs:

 

[spawnofthesith]

Interesting, I'm on the opposite side. For the most part the only enjoyment I can glean out of most modern pop is studying the production. I like it

 

[la szum]

Great book. So insightful. For you readers out there. Really highlights how humans
have pursued sound reproduction to the point that most acts have to use tracks
now to recreate what was done in the studio, and is impossible to pull off live without
the assistance of those tracks.

Production is remaking performance now. It used to be that production was racing to
catch up to performance (the record doesn't capture their live vibe!) and there were
limitations on how accurately it could do so. Now performance is the slave and production
is the master. Pun intended.

 

[TSJMajesty]

and is impossible to pull off live without
the assistance of those tracks.

I want to hear the live "vibe", live. I don't care if the Nashville-tuned 12-string is covered by the use of an octave pedal, with a low mix %.
I expect the band may have to figure out how to deal with some of the things they did in the studio. That's part of the live experience to me. It imparts a different aspect of creativity, and in some ways, a big reason why so much "gear" exists in the first place. The Mimic pedal, e.g.

 

[DrewJD82]

It’s kinda funny now, because we’re hitting a point where there are some modern bands who are also opposed to current (well, the last 20 years) production standards but still get shit for supposedly using modern production. Trivium’s What The Dead Men Say album had real, legit drums played by an actual (phenomenal) drummer, but people just assumed it was drum samples because the drums sound fucking GREAT. Avenged Sevenfold’s new album doesn’t have any samples, no auto-tune, everything was legit performed by members of the band and they’re getting so much shit for using actual vocoders and taking time to get great drum sounds. Or people think it sounds too boring because it’s not brickwalled.

Once Killswitch Engage’s The End Of Heartache came out, that was it man, everyone was going for the Sneap sound in metal. It’s barely let up since then.

 

[BahamaDada]

It’s kinda funny now, because we’re hitting a point where there are some modern bands who are also opposed to current (well, the last 20 years) production standards but still get shit for supposedly using modern production. Trivium’s What The Dead Men Say album had real, legit drums played by an actual (phenomenal) drummer, but people just assumed it was drum samples because the drums sound fucking GREAT. Avenged Sevenfold’s new album doesn’t have any samples, no auto-tune, everything was legit performed by members of the band and they’re getting so much shit for using actual vocoders and taking time to get great drum sounds. Or people think it sounds too boring because it’s not brickwalled.

Once Killswitch Engage’s The End Of Heartache came out, that was it man, everyone was going for the Sneap sound in metal. It’s barely let up since then.

Is the A7X part true? Still have a soft spot for them, might give the new album a listen. Or 2. Or 3 if it's nice.

Well, the Sneap sound is absolutely phenomenal. Objectively. Subjectively I sometimes can't stand it anymore bc I heard it in thousand and one recordings.

I can second everything you said here @DrewJD82

I think the live<>recording talk is kind of steering away from the original topic, but when we are at it:

I HATE BACKING TRACKS. If you can't play it live, don't do it. Hire a touring guitarist or a keyboarder. Or both. I don't care. If essential parts of your music come from Ableton I can listen to the track at home as well. Without paying 100+€ for a ticket.

And if there is 1 live guitarist and the studio recording has 6 guitar tracks... who cares. Give it live feeling. Get creative with parts. Use dual amps in stereo. Whatever you have to do to make it happen

That was something I loved about the Ed Sheeran concert I went with my wife: Not my cup of tea, but that guy played everything live. He even fucked up once with the looper and that was my highlight of the night bc that is what makes it live for me: Risk and reward.

 

[la szum]

I want to hear the live "vibe", live. I don't care if the Nashville-tuned 12-string is covered by the use of an octave pedal, with a low mix %.
I expect the band may have to figure out how to deal with some of the things they did in the studio. That's part of the live experience to me. It imparts a different aspect of creativity, and in some ways, a big reason why so much "gear" exists in the first place. The Mimic pedal, e.g.

Exactly! I prefer when it is two distinct and different expereinces entirely. Album/studio sounds like an album/studio.
Live sounds like a truly live band playing. Keep the tracks to yourself.... or at a minimum. I won't judge you for it.

 

[la szum]

Is it wanting to put on the best live show possible that leads down the slippery slope of tracks
and samples and clicks live..... or is it a bit of insecurity that, "They won't like us if we take the
makeup off and remove our Spanx?"

 

[TSJMajesty]

For many tours, Rush would not do Witchhunt because Neil had done drum overdubs that he couldn't cover live. (Say it isn't so! lol)

Not sure what they ended up doing, but they did eventually play it.

Heck, even Ged played a doubleneck bass/guitar so he could play the guitar parts behind AL's solo in Xanadu and By-Tor and the Snow Dog. Now that's a band that used gear so they could cover their studio stuff!

 

[fretworn]

I think the production side is fascinating … it has a lot of complexity to it which I always enjoy, and I’ve yet to figure it out - so until I do… I’ll keep fiddling with it lol

 

[spawnofthesith]

I'm glad I largely listen to jambands where the studio recordings are largely giant 's and the live performance is the magical breathtaking mind blowing experience that can't be captured. Soundboards get you a lot of the way there, but that last 10-20% is a pretty big gap

 

[DrewJD82]

Is the A7X part true? Still have a soft spot for them, might give the new album a listen. Or 2. Or 3 if it's nice.

Well, the Sneap sound is absolutely phenomenal. Objectively. Subjectively I sometimes can't stand it anymore bc I heard it in thousand and one recordings.

I can second everything you said here @DrewJD82

I think the live<>recording talk is kind of steering away from the original topic, but when we are at it:

I HATE BACKING TRACKS. If you can't play it live, don't do it. Hire a touring guitarist or a keyboarder. Or both. I don't care. If essential parts of your music come from Ableton I can listen to the track at home as well. Without paying 100+€ for a ticket.

And if there is 1 live guitarist and the studio recording has 6 guitar tracks... who cares. Give it live feeling. Get creative with parts. Use dual amps in stereo. Whatever you have to do to make it happen

That was something I loved about the Ed Sheeran concert I went with my wife: Not my cup of tea, but that guy played everything live. He even fucked up once with the looper and that was my highlight of the night bc that is what makes it live for me: Risk and reward.

The A7X part is indeed true. I fucking love the new album, it’s my favorite of theirs so far because it’s not like a single one of their other albums. It’s not that I don’t dig their other albums, it’s just such a departure from them that I have huge respect for the chance they took and presenting a challenge to their fanbase instead of releasing City Of Evil PT VI. It’d be closest to The Stage but it goes off the wall even more. And surprisingly, it’s the singer Matt who was anti-sample and was the biggest stickler about doing things for real in the studio.

The drums sound so fucking good on that album, instead of the kicks having a straight muted thud you get the initial attack and hear the sound bloom in the drum, haven’t heard that shit on an album in a long time. There’s some sections I’m not fond of individually, but in the context of the album it’s pretty killer. Pretty much A7X meets Mr. Bungle meets Daft Punk with a guest visit from Dream Theater for a section or two.

This one is the one I can’t get out of my head this week, just wait until that intro ends and the band kicks in, goes into a total Patton/Bungle verse section.



And this one gets into Zappa/Dream Theater territory, especially the female vocals/harmonies later in the song, they could have been taken right off a Zappa album…..and there’s a descending line in the intro they snagged straight out of “The Dance Of Eternity” by DT.

 

[Moondog Wily]

The A7X part is indeed true. I fucking love the new album, it’s my favorite of theirs so far because it’s not like a single one of their other albums. It’s not that I don’t dig their other albums, it’s just such a departure from them that I have huge respect for the chance they took and presenting a challenge to their fanbase instead of releasing City Of Evil PT VI. It’d be closest to The Stage but it goes off the wall even more. And surprisingly, it’s the singer Matt who was anti-sample and was the biggest stickler about doing things for real in the studio.

The drums sound so fucking good on that album, instead of the kicks having a straight muted thud you get the initial attack and hear the sound bloom in the drum, haven’t heard that shit on an album in a long time. There’s some sections I’m not fond of individually, but in the context of the album it’s pretty killer. Pretty much A7X meets Mr. Bungle meets Daft Punk with a guest visit from Dream Theater for a section or two.

This one is the one I can’t get out of my head this week, just wait until that intro ends and the band kicks in, goes into a total Patton/Bungle verse section.



And this one gets into Zappa/Dream Theater territory, especially the female vocals/harmonies later in the song, they could have been taken right off a Zappa album…..and there’s a descending line in the intro they snagged straight out of “The Dance Of Eternity” by DT.

Wow, that second one is totally Zappa and the Mothers territory! Thanks for sharing!!

 

[spawnofthesith]

As much as I never thought I’d say these words, I really need to get around to checking out the new A7X

 

[BahamaDada]

For many tours, Rush would not do Witchhunt because Neil had done drum overdubs that he couldn't cover live. (Say it isn't so! lol)

Not sure what they ended up doing, but they did eventually play it.

Heck, even Ged played a doubleneck bass/guitar so he could play the guitar parts behind AL's solo in Xanadu and By-Tor and the Snow Dog. Now that's a band that used gear so they could cover their studio stuff!

Wonderful example IMO of using gear to make the live setting work.

The A7X part is indeed true. I fucking love the new album, it’s my favorite of theirs so far because it’s not like a single one of their other albums.

That second one ("G") surely sounded like hey took a big gulp of Dream Theater (If I was a teahouse I'd sell it under the name of Dream Tea-ater). A7X are just a killer band tbh. Every album is different and they had my respect and anything before, but now that doubled, I guess, bc of the musicmanship.

 

[la szum]

M Shadows is the new James Labrie.

That nasally rasp is increasingly grating..... especially when trying to do whacked out Prog Pop.