Getting low end thump without tubbiness?

[TDSTIAYW]

Long time lurker…first time poster.

What are some tips for getting a ton of low-end thump from an amp sim without also turning the low end into a tubby mess? I have tried using a TS in front. And I tried cutting the bass going into the amp also, but this thins out the overall tone too much.

If I get the low end from the amp sim itself then it tends to round off the pick attack too much. If I add bass after the cab impulse, I get better results. However, the low end sometimes feels tacked on and makes it hard to get a good a LUFS-I levels as it eats up a lot of the available headroom.

Is there a mixing trick that I am missing? Typically, I use a Jackson Dinky with an EMG 81 in the bridge straight into my interface. For sims I run NAM with EVH red channel profiles into Reaper with Dr. Bonkers cab impulses. I mostly tune to C#.

I am not using a ton of gain, so I am at a loss. Why is my signal muddy at times? New batteries. New strings. Same results. Is it because I mix mostly with AKGs?

Thoughts?

 

[Will Chen]

The "trick" is to let the bass and bass drum take care of the low end.

 

[Mongillo19]

I am not using a ton of gain, so I am at a loss. Why is my signal muddy at times? New batteries. New strings. Same results. Is it because I mix mostly with AKGs?

Welcome!

As I'm sure you know, NAM is profile based so unless you made the profile or have the settings, you won't be sure what the bass setting was at. With profiles, adding in bass is going to be post minus say editing a EVH model via a digital modeler or sim.

Have you tried other profiles on NAM?

 

[TDSTIAYW]

Welcome!

As I'm sure you know, NAM is profile based so unless you made the profile or have the settings, you won't be sure what the bass setting was at. With profiles, adding in bass is going to be post minus say editing a EVH model via a digital modeler or sim.

Have you tried other profiles on NAM?

This is a good point. Yes, I have tried a few. A lot of them are really good...but I tend to run into similar trouble. I think it is my lack of dedicated monitors maybe. And no comprehensive acoustic room treatment in my space.

 

[la szum]

Sounds like you are using a DAW. I'd suggest some strategic Hi Pass/Lo Cut in the 80-120Hz range.

I am sure your DAW has a parametric EQ plug in that you can use. Experiment with shelving in the
range above. You may also need to notch somewhere in the 120-150Hz range. Really narrow.

Generally anything below 80Hz is mud city for guitar and is going to muck up the kick and bass.

 

[TDSTIAYW]

Sounds like you are using a DAW. I'd suggest some strategic Hi Pass/Lo Cut in the 80-120Hz range.

I am sure your DAW has a parametric EQ plug in that you can use. Experiment with shelving in the
range above. You may also need to notch somewhere in the 120-150Hz range. Really narrow.

Generally anything below 80Hz is mud city for guitar and is going to muck up the kick and bass.

Good advice. Thanks.

 

[Will Chen]

I think it is my lack of dedicated monitors maybe.

When mixing, I always take a quick look at a spectral analysis to keep me honest (SPAN is a good free one). Very easy to see if there's a potential issue being ignore due to ear fatigue or in your case a lack of full range monitoring. A system with a sub is going to hit way harder in the low end than some headphones.

 

[Orvillain]

Cut bass before the distortion. Boost bass after the distortion. It really is that simple.

 

[the-trooper]

first time poster.

Dill pickles or sweet pickles?

 

[ian_dissonance]

The "trick" is to let the bass and bass drum take care of the low end.

This is the answer.

 

[TDSTIAYW]

Dill pickles or sweet pickles?

Dill!

 

[BenIfin]

Long time lurker…first time poster.

What are some tips for getting a ton of low-end thump from an amp sim without also turning the low end into a tubby mess? I have tried using a TS in front. And I tried cutting the bass going into the amp also, but this thins out the overall tone too much.

If I get the low end from the amp sim itself then it tends to round off the pick attack too much. If I add bass after the cab impulse, I get better results. However, the low end sometimes feels tacked on and makes it hard to get a good a LUFS-I levels as it eats up a lot of the available headroom.

Is there a mixing trick that I am missing? Typically, I use a Jackson Dinky with an EMG 81 in the bridge straight into my interface. For sims I run NAM with EVH red channel profiles into Reaper with Dr. Bonkers cab impulses. I mostly tune to C#.

I am not using a ton of gain, so I am at a loss. Why is my signal muddy at times? New batteries. New strings. Same results. Is it because I mix mostly with AKGs?

Thoughts?

The "trick" is to let the bass and bass drum take care of the low end.

I.m.o .... in contemporary rock / pop guitar - hell even in the classic rock of the 60's and 70's - listne to the iso tracks etc...... nothing of any value is added below the 100hz <-> 125hz range in a mix / live situation ..... give the Bass and Bass drum and low Toms room to breath.

Ben

 

[ian_dissonance]

As an aside, if the guitars are eating up headroom in your master they’re probably just too loud in general. In heavy music the push and pull of the low end is usually a combination of your bass/kick combining in the right way and the guitars shouldn’t really be increasing the low end a whole lot. A dynamic EQ or multiband compressor hitting the “chug” to keep it at a consistent level and then eq’ing around your other subby instruments will sound more full and clear and heavy than having a ton of low end coming from any single source. Figure out what frequency range the kick and the bass are carrying and fit the guitar in with it.

 

[DrewJD82]

As La Szum said, the 80hz-100hz are going to be you’re trouble spots.….for guitar, but that’s only one instrument.

I’ve been going down a rabbit hole lately after getting better studio monitors and hearing how low end was effecting my mixes. The biggest thing sucking out headroom was the kick drum from drum VST’s. It’s a process to figure out how to make those low frequencies from a kick, bass and chug all work together while they’re all competing for space.

Are you chopping everything off below 30hz? I keep an EQ on my master bus just chopping that off, then I go through each instrument and start hacking off low end. The faster the tempo, the less low end you can have going on. Just think of a fast 16th pattern on a kick drum; before that bass resonance even starts it’s already hitting another kick drum, so the low end is getting dragged behind and pummeled.

While listening to isolated tracks on YouTube isn’t the greatest reference, some of them are pretty good quality and if you just keep in mind you’re hearing a mastered isolated track, you can get a decent idea of what’s happening in it. Reference other songs on your speakers frequently, it’s easy to get tunnel vision when you’re doing detail work on your own stuff.

There’s no specific formulate, but if you start with chopping 100hz-80hz off the guitars and just follow it down in instrument, 90hz-70hz for bass and 80hz-60hz for the kick. Those are really rough/wide figures, but note the separate frequency space each instrument is residing in.

Low end rob’s Peter to pay Paul over and over again. “Oh, lemme take some of your low end so I can put it in the kick drums” and only time and good monitors can teach you what’s happening.

 

[northern_fox]

two things -

1) is this for a full mix or for just guitar tones for playing/demo etc, because those are totally different applications and you might prefer more bass for the latter but not in a mix. Also as was mentioned the bass/kick make up almost all of the thump in many cases, but the brain associates it with the guitar if the rhythm is the same

2) headphones may not be what you want for balancing low end. It can be a little misleading I think unless you have a lot of reference. Trying to perfect the low end on headphones will likely not result in the sound you want on regular speakers

 

[ian_dissonance]

two things -

1) is this for a full mix or for just guitar tones for playing/demo etc, because those are totally different applications and you might prefer more bass for the latter but not in a mix. Also as was mentioned the bass/kick make up almost all of the thump in many cases, but the brain associates it with the guitar if the rhythm is the same

2) headphones may not be what you want for balancing low end. It can be a little misleading I think unless you have a lot of reference. Trying to perfect the low end on headphones will likely not result in the sound you want on regular speakers

If they’re decent headphones and not like Beats or something you’ll probably get a more accurate low end image than monitors in an untreated room.

 

[TDSTIAYW]

Great advice all around. Lots to think about and to try out.

Thankfully in a mix, the issue it hasn't been as noticeable. On isolated guitars, when I'm just jamming, I can still hear it...depending on what I'm playing. Changing picks recently has helped a bit in that regard. Some picks, I find make my tubbiness issue worse on my guitar, while others clean up the low end rumble relatively well.

My aim is to make the guitar chug and cut (as I'm playing modern metal) but without making the guitar also sound too thin. It's been hard to get those low mids and bass notes to sit just right with the treble.

As many of you said, it's much more of a balancing act than I acknowledged. I have decent headphones so by A/Bing some references, I should be able to sort things out. Thanks for the feedback.

 

[dronerstone]

Great advice all around. Lots to think about and to try out.

Thankfully in a mix, the issue it hasn't been as noticeable. On isolated guitars, when I'm just jamming, I can still hear it...depending on what I'm playing. Changing picks recently has helped a bit in that regard. Some picks, I find make my tubbiness issue worse on my guitar, while others clean up the low end rumble relatively well.

My aim is to make the guitar chug and cut (as I'm playing modern metal) but without making the guitar also sound too thin. It's been hard to get those low mids and bass notes to sit just right with the treble.

As many of you said, it's much more of a balancing act than I acknowledged. I have decent headphones so by A/Bing some references, I should be able to sort things out. Thanks for the feedback.

Definitely not a chug tone (I guess with the right high-gain drive it could be), but here's something I learned studying early QOTSA rigs: add a good amount of low mids (e.g. 300 Hz is the lowest frequency center on the old Ampeg V-Series guitar amps), then cut the bass until the mushiness goes away. Works fine for me, since the thump is still there in the low mids.

You're pretty much substituting the bass with low mids that way, while also going out of your way for the bass player. Like others said, the band context/mix does a lot of heavy lifting, and is a crucial part of overall sound sculpting.

 

[aldunk]

Another thing to look at could be the cab impulses you're using. They might be relatively boomy IR's in a high gain context and simply trying a different IR could help with the problem. I've never tried the IR's you mentioned so can't comment on how they sound.

 

[TDSTIAYW]

My new mixes sound better already. Who says you can't learn stuff from the Internet.